🚀 go-pugleaf

Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: I-Comm once again!!! IMHO, I-Comm is the way out for most of TFN's 
: current probelms that can be summarized as follows:


Good to heaar from you again Nabil. Most of the time I don't understand 
what you are talking about, but your posts always create excited 
responses from excited peaple.


: - User unsatisfaction with the current interface.
: - Sponsors search for graphical-enabled, sound-enabled platforms to put 
: their ads. 

: THE USUAL COUNTER-POINTS:

: A- TFN does not have enough band width to allow its users graphical access 
:    to the WWW.

: The answer to that is the ideal situation is for the users to use this 
: browser within TFN. If we provide a 'graphical' menu system (which 
: coincides with the requirements of the information providers to use HTML 
: instead of the more difficult and less featured 'menu system'). The link 
: to such files would be a Lynx link. 
: Some of the users will however try to access sites outside TFN. This is a 
: self-limiting phenomenon, as most will discover that:

: a. It takes so much time to 'download' the html.
: b. The HTML is first downloaded to the user's computer which will 
:    eventually exhaust its resources.
: c. The TFN philosophy is built around competing for scarce resources, 
:    whether that be the telephone lines or the band-width. If too many people 
:    are using the bandwidth, all the connections will become slower.

: Solutions to TFN bandwidth problems:

: a. Discontinue not.torfree.net and all its afilliated sites 
:    (gts.torfree.net, etc.)
: b. Cancel all accounts outside the Toronto area (those people use telnet 
:    to reach TFN). They are most likely the least contributing members to the 
:    donations. They also must have other accounts to reach the TFN, so no 
:    harm will be done. Such approach has been implemented by one of the 
:    Finnish FreeNets. 

: B- The TFN does not have enough volunteer resources to implement new 
:    systems nor provide user support for them.

: Please read carefully the information listed below for the system 
: requirements regarding the server. Only one file need to be included in 
: the root directory. THAT IS IT.
: 1;2;c
: Support can be provided - as it usually is - by other users in the 
: newsgroups. May be we can also establish a new newsgroup just for that 
: purpose.

: WHAT IS NEEDED:

: 1- Provide the I-COMM browser in the public download area for the users 
:    to experiment with. It is an excellent 'terminal' for use even with 
:    current setting of TFN. This will avoid actually TFN users having to 
:    subscribe to such freenets as the Finnish Freenet to be able to download 
:    the software (by the way; why have the download feature been disabled in 
:    the new Lynx?).
: 2- Make the decision to use I-Comm as 'THE' TFN browser and install the 
:    server side file.
: 3- Make the information known to our users (asking them for donations, as 
:    we are improving the service).
: 4- Immediate shift to HTML menues. Make this information known to our 
:    'potential sponsors' and of course users and above all Information 
:    Providers.

: C- GUI access would affect those users preferring text-only.

: Not at all. This approach is different than the PPP/SLIP alternative. 

: D- Most TFN users will not be able to use the new features.

: Again wrong. The browser only needs a 386. I have bought one from the 
: Goodwell (though I still have my Pentium) for only $35 (an IBM PS/2 Model 
: 70). Also all libraries that ar affilliated with TFN can install the 
: I-Comm browser for TFN users. The desk space required is minimal and the 
: browser is better than those currently in use by the libraries. Those who 
: cannot afford a second-hand 386 can always use the library. I have been 
: doing that - as I did not have a telephone line, now I have one - as at 
: least 2 persons that I happen to know closely ;-)

: In the current situation the TFN is in, and with the board's decision to 
: take the easy way by forwarding the bill to the users - something that I 
: basically do not agree with - we might as well show that we are 
: 'improving' the service for the users.

: Following is a brief list of I-Comm features of the older version. For 
: more information, or to obtain the software:

: http://www.best.com/~icomm/
: http://www.talentcom.com/

: May common sense prevail?

: Nabil M. El-Khodari

: --------------------------------------------------------------------------

: I-Comm(TM) FAQ Last Modified: Nov. 1, 1995 Version 1.09 Beta1 1. What is
: I-Comm ?==================================================================
:    I-Comm is a full featured graphical WWW browser which does
:    not require any kind of SLIP/PPP connection. If you have a
:    PC with Windows, a modem and an Internet Shell, VAX, or
:    Freenet account, then you are ready to surf the Internet
:    using I-Comm.  No fancy setup is needed. 
:    I-Comm has a "Mosaic look & feel" interface and can display
:    pages while downloading images in the background.  I-Comm also
:    has a built-in full featured modem communication program which
:    allows a user to switch between the communication program and
:    the browser with just one button click. 
:    I-Comm is a shareware program.  

: 2. What are I-Comm's minimum system requirements ? 
:    a. 386DX running MS-Windows (tm) 3.1 or above with 4MB Memory
:       and 1MB Disk Space; 
:    b. 9.6 kbs or faster Modem; 
:    c. A UNIX shell, VAX, or Freenet account with Internet access; 
:    d. Z-Modem transfer program "sz" installed in your Internet
:       account search path; 
:    e. "icomhost" program from Talent Communications, installed in
:       your Internet account search path; 
:       OR Lynx browser installed in your Internet account search
:       path; 
:       OR WWW browser installed in your Internet account search
:       path.  3. I-Comm's key features: 
:    a. TWO IN ONE graphical WWW browser and modem
:       communication program. 
:    b. Switching between Browser and Terminal windows with just
:       one button click makes Internet surfing easier and more
:       enjoyable. 
:    c. Does NOT require any kind of SLIP/PPP connection. 
:    d. Supports HTTP, FTP and Gopher protocols. 
:    e. Complete form support. 
:    f. Can save HTML pages to disk WITH INLINE IMAGES. 
:    g. Allows a user to edit the HTML file source. 
:    h. Supports an unlimited number of hot list files and allows
:       a user to edit the hot lists. 
:    i. Supports batch HTTP, FTP, Gopher file downloading. 



: -- 
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Nabil M. El-Khodari     You can fool all the people for some time 
: TFN IP                  Or some people all the time 
:                         But you cannot fool all the people all the time
-- 

Albert Lawrence (slushpit@torfree.net) wrote:

: Good to heaar from you again Nabil. Most of the time I don't understand 
: what you are talking about, but your posts always create excited 
: responses from excited peaple.

Hahaha. I am used to it. It is good to notice that those who 'excitedly' 
responded do actually have a not.torfree.net account (Jordan and Dmytri). 
Though Dmytri's participation comes as a surprise (he never tries to 
participate in board meetings. It is rumoured that he moved to the 
States). Jordan is another issue totally. He is just happy to make 
enemies with no apparent provocation. It is not only me, but he now 
considers some current TFN members as his 'enemies'. 

Those people will never understand that I am far above their 'little' 
things. Redicule or even down-right rudeness or even profanity does not 
affect me. It merely reflects how little they are.

On the other hand, I do listen to logic and explanations of things I do 
not understand. 

So, when Dmytri says that the not.torfree.net connection is different 
than the TFN connection, he is only partially right. What he knows so 
well is that the TFN connection and the Ryerson connection (plus the 
school net connection) are all linked together and are actually using one 
T1 connection freely provided by Rogers as a community service.

So in fact the wavelength used by not.torfree.net (which has nothing to 
do with the operations of the TFN and does not benefit any TFN user) does 
in fact affect the wavelength used by the TFN.

According to Colin McGregor in a conversation with David Jones - who
participates through conference telephony - in one board meeting late 1997
that I have attended, Rogers is actually asking for an explanation of the
high wavelength use by the not.torfree.net.  Guess who is preparing the
answer? ;-) This fact was also confirmed by Jordan in the last AGM. But do
you believe they would shut down the office web server? No. They will
continue to USE (add an ab if you like) the TFN till they bring it down. 

So my friends, I shall be there always. May be not as frequently as I 
used to, now that I have a full time job that is highly demanding on my 
time and energies. Those jobless people will have as many posts as they 
want, but whether it is convincing to the ordinary TFN user or not, is 
something else.



-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:32:21 GMT, Carlos Coimbra (aa713@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:

: : But Nabil here is focusing on "bandwidth", not "expenses".

If you read (and hopefully understand) my post, you note that I 
acknowledge the problem of perceived extra bandwidth usage which my 
happen at first. I stated that this can be prevented by making the TFN 
menues in HTML format (as actually Chris is doing right now in posting 
the board minutes through Lynx). Now if the TFN menues are in HTML (with 
graphics) then any dial-up user will NOT use any 'external' connection - 
and no bandwidth. The problem would exist only from two sources:

- Those dial-up users who frequently visit sites on the net and would 
like to do that graphically. As I stated it is a pain in the ... for too 
many reasons; basically the slow modems (14.4), the internet congestion, 
etc. SO IMHO it would be a self-limiting phenomenon.

- The TFN users who telnet to the TFN. I agree that it is important to 
keep some of them - those who were/are residing in Toronto and want to 
'keep in touch'. However, there are many 'international' members that are 
in reality only free-loaders. They do not contribute any thing to the 
TFN. Wew can not rely on some - not documented - personal experiences - 
e.g. someone donated $250 - in the absence of reliable statistics or 
data. You cannot generalize from 'personal knowledge'. David Jones, 
though living in Ottawa is one of the major donors to TFN. But David 
Jones is one of the TFN founders and is not 'the rule'. 

My suggestion then is that we should set up a 'compulsory' fee for people 
with a mailing address outside Toronto. This fee should take in 
consideration that they are using one of the valuable resources - though 
we do not currently pay for it, but certainly has a potential for making 
trouble for the TFN - i.e. bandwidth. The telephone lines are truely a 
limited resource, but except early in nights no body has any problem 
connecting to the TFN. On the other hand, Rogers is asking TFN for an 
explanation for the excess use of the combined bandwidth from TFN and 
not.torfree.net, both of which at the end use the Rogers donated 
community T1 connection. So bandwidth (which is totally different than 
hard disk storage ;-) is the more pressing problem.

It is true that adopting I-comm may cause an initial surge in bandwidth 
usage, however this is self-limiting and depends actually on our success 
in keeping the users satisfied WITHIN the TFN.

You concentrated on the perceived drawbacks and did not comment on the 
perceived benefits from:

- Sponsors who would like a garphic forum for their ads. Thus we shoudl 
rightfully expect an increase in sponsorship.

- the user community.

You also did not discuss the value - more often downgraded by those 
short-sighted old school TFNers - of graphics.


: But his proposal would increase the bandwidth used, as well as increase
: the load on ALL our resources. Not one of his suggestions would decrease
: our bandwidth use.

See above. The balance of pros/cons should be carefully considered. If we 
are - though I do not agree with it - are catering to the users to pay 
the bills, then may be we should listen to what the users want. They have 
declared they want PPP/GUI. We will provide something that is not PPP, 
but can be considered as GUI. It is a perfect compromise.

: If we are going to move towards a graphical interface, we will need more
: bandwidth, and that will cost money.

Not necessarily. Actually I had frequently suggested that we provide a 
local PPP (kisok). This will cost us no bandwidth.

: : However, the board could certainly consider not to renew or accept as future 
: : members those who live outside Toronto.

: Why? The saving to us would be minimal, if not a loss. 

Depends how you evaluate their use of wavelength through telnetting. 
Rogers is getting restless. Of course not paying even our telephone bills 
may cause them to take severe actions. Again, I suggest that those not 
living in the Toronto area be made to pay a membership fee or their 
accounts would be cancelled.

: I know of at least two members who live outside Toronto who have donated
: $250.00 each within the last month. 

One is David Jones. Who is the other ;-)

: : P.S. I have the distinct feeling that, whatever Nabil suggests, some 
: : people are always ready to naysay it... Maybe if he'd suggest the 
: : opposite of what he really means, he'd get his private member's bill to 
: : get a hearing.

: When Nabil says something that makes sense, we listen. Unfortunately, that
: rarely happens.

What rarely happens? you listening ;-)

: Please note that I did take it seriously enough to respond seriously.
: If anyone can provide any information on I-Comm that refutes my
: statements, I'll listen.

Why you need soemone else to tell you how I-comm is. Go get it. You can 
try it as a 'terminal' with the TFN. If you want to try it as a graphic 
browser than I shall lend you my Finnish account for a trial period (I 
have to do that as the Finnish Freenet actually stopped accepting 
applications from people not living in Finland. They will also cancel 
outside accounts, same as I am suggesting the TFN do).

The basic information I have provided. Some lies were provided by others, 
e.g. you have to pay for the software. No. If you use version 1.15 
(available from the Finnish Freenet), it is free. If you go for version 
1.2 or later, it is shareware, that is to say it will bug you to register 
but you actually can still use it. It is full-featured version.
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

In article <En0pox.Mwx.0.queen@torfree.net>,
Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari <ad613@torfree.net> wrote:
>data. You cannot generalize from 'personal knowledge'. David Jones, 
>though living in Ottawa is one of the major donors to TFN. But David 
>Jones is one of the TFN founders and is not 'the rule'. 

Hah.  I wish.

I received my membership only a few days before yours.

(aa018 actually granted membership status vs. ad613)

Up until Nov. 4, 1994, I may have had an account, but I was not a member.

The "founders" were the eight people who incorporated the TFN and ruled the
Board with an iron fist for over 18 months before the first elections.

: So, when Dmytri says that the not.torfree.net connection is different 
: than the TFN connection, he is only partially right. What he knows so 
: well is that the TFN connection and the Ryerson connection (plus the 
: school net connection) are all linked together and are actually using one 
: T1 connection freely provided by Rogers as a community service.

Nabil, The not server isn't connected to TFN main servers AT ALL.. 
Ryerson has it's own inet connectino, try ping the not server and you'll 
find out who it is!!


: According to Colin McGregor in a conversation with David Jones - who
: participates through conference telephony - in one board meeting late 1997
: that I have attended, Rogers is actually asking for an explanation of the
: high wavelength use by the not.torfree.net.  Guess who is preparing the
: answer? ;-) This fact was also confirmed by Jordan in the last AGM. But do
: you believe they would shut down the office web server? No. They will
: continue to USE (add an ab if you like) the TFN till they bring it down. 

The not server is also used for testing reason's too Nabil.. 

: So my friends, I shall be there always. May be not as frequently as I 
: used to, now that I have a full time job that is highly demanding on my 
: time and energies. Those jobless people will have as many posts as they 
: want, but whether it is convincing to the ordinary TFN user or not, is 
: something else.

The Not server is out of the question, as Bruce Becker has stated to me a 
number of times, it NEEDS revamping, and I noticed that when I was 
looking around ... There's no reason that the not server should be used 
period except for what it's doing now.. some resources on not could be 
used, but not at this time Nabil... there are 2 other Servers in the 
office which could be used for the crap your talking about.. but before 
any servers in the office can be used, a firewall server must be inplace 
in the office FIRST!!!
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net 
		ICQ#: 6453134

Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:

: Dmitri has always particpated fully in the meetings he has attended.

When was the last one is the question ;-) You have your way with words. 
Are you folling any body?

: : So, when Dmytri says that the not.torfree.net connection is different 
: : than the TFN connection, he is only partially right. What he knows so 
: : well is that the TFN connection and the Ryerson connection (plus the 
: : school net connection) are all linked together and are actually using one 
: : T1 connection freely provided by Rogers as a community service.

: How can he "know so well" something that is not true?

Are you denying that the TFN, Ryerson and the School Net are using the 
same 'community' T1 provided by Rogers?

: : So in fact the wavelength used by not.torfree.net (which has nothing to 
: : do with the operations of the TFN and does not benefit any TFN user) does 
: : in fact affect the wavelength used by the TFN.

: I assume that by "wavelength" you mean "bandwidth"?

You caught me here. Absolutely true. Thanks for the correction.

: There are few uses of 'not' that use ANY of TFN's bandwith:

Duh.

: 1. When a user logged in to the TFN accesses a web page on 'not'
: 	The 'not' web server get very little traffic, only a small 
: 	portion of which comes from the TFN. There is so little traffic
: 	that even if it all came from the TFN I doubt it would amount to a
: 	significant portion of the bandwidth. 

This should never be a matter of 'opinion'. Please provide statistics. 
Again if what you say is true, what is the value of the not.torfree.net 
for the average TFN user then? If even the average TFN user does not care 
to visit not.torfree.net. I am not doubting what you say. I totally agree 
with that part, which is all the good reason to disconnect the office web 
server or to use absolutely by the IRC committee and information 
providers only to facilitate the transition to HTML menus. All other 
accounts would then have to be cancelled (e.g. Sasha, Jordan, etc.)

: 2. When a volunteer logs on to not from one of the TFN servers.
: 	There is rarely more than one person logged on to 'not' at any
: 	time and most of those are not using a TFN server. When they
: 	telnet in from another system or from another office computer,
: 	they use no TFN bandwidth. And most of the time there is no one
: 	logged in to 'not'.

This is what I am saying. It uses bandwidth though, right? So if 
strangers are using the bandwidth to get to information or web pages that 
are of no interest to the average TFN user, and subsequently causing us 
problems with Rogers/Ryerson, the thing to do is to stop this NOW. I do 
not know why there is also gts.torfree.net and csas.torfree.net. Please 
do not confuse the readers by saying that the GTS is Bruce's server. This 
is only partly true; www.gts.com IS Bruce's server, not gts.torfree.net. 

: 3. When an office volunteer or visitor uses 'not' to connect to the TFN.
: 	This is the cheapest possible way to connect to the TFN
: 	from the office. Since 'not.torfree.net' is connected to the
: 	Ryerson network, we use it to telnet to the TFN. It uses no phone
: 	lines, and most of its use is very low bandwidth.

Duh. The Ryerson Network is directly connected to the TFN. You do not 
need to have a special server at the office to be able to connect to the TFN.

: 4. When mail is forwarded by the TFN mail server.
: 	Probably no more than a couple of dozen e-mails per day. Mail is
: 	usually retrieved either directly on 'not' -- no outside
: 	connection of any kind -- or from one of the other computers in
: 	the office, i.e. it uses none of the bandwidth we get from Rogers,
: 	only the Ryerson network. 

Why should a TFN member need to forward his mail to not.torfree.net? In 
fact Sasha is the major user of the not.torfree.net as his main mail 
recepient. When I was the office administrator, I have zipped 5 MB - yes 
MegaByte - worth of mail.

: Nabil, your obsession with 'not' is quite incomprehensible, as is why you
: fail to understand things you have been told over and over again.

May be because you know you are not convincing. May be because I know the 
real uses of the office web server ;-0

: If not's usage of the TFN bandwidth from Rogers were increased tenfold,
: the effect would still be negligible.

Duh. Let Rogers/Ryerson say that.
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: : On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:32:21 GMT, Carlos Coimbra (aa713@torfree.net) wrote:
: : : Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:

: : : But Nabil here is focusing on "bandwidth", not "expenses".

: You cannot generalize from 'personal knowledge'. David Jones, 
: though living in Ottawa is one of the major donors to TFN. But David 
: Jones is one of the TFN founders and is not 'the rule'. 

: My suggestion then is that we should set up a 'compulsory' fee for people 
: with a mailing address outside Toronto.

Now that is something to consider seriously. It would not be out of line 
at all, and other Freenets and Community Nets do exactly that.
Of course, that would apply more appropriately if "Toronto" tax money had 
been given to TFN. It seems that only a provincial grant was received, 
and so all Ontarians should be allowed free access. But that's why debate
was invented, isn't it?

-- 

bt351 (bt351@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: 	(hack, buzzt, clank)

: : Why you need soemone else to tell you how I-comm is. Go get it. You can 
: : try it as a 'terminal' with the TFN. If you want to try it as a graphic 
: : browser than I shall lend you my Finnish account for a trial period (I 
: : have to do that as the Finnish Freenet actually stopped accepting 
: : applications from people not living in Finland. They will also cancel 
: : outside accounts, same as I am suggesting the TFN do).

: 	or you can just download a web page and then read it into the 
: viewer.  
: 	icomm is a dog.
: 	most will find it difficult, if not impossible to read pages 
: loaded on it.

Abvsolutely false. You have to use it on a server with the special 
icomhost file at the root directory, e.g. the Finnish Freenet.

: 	its html interpretation is archaic.

Duh.

: 	definitely NO support for frames, tables etc.

It DOES support frames and tables. See the fact sheet. 

: 	this is the best reason to stick to lynx to come along in some time.

I-Comm uses Lynx. There is a difference between I-Comm (terminal/browser) 
and Lynx. Though of course if you have an ISP account you can use Lynx 
directly from your machine. But for the average TFN user, I-Comm may be 
the answer to enjoy some GUI, preferably within the TFN menues.

Stop the confusion campaign.
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:18:01 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: bt351 (bt351@torfree.net) wrote:
: : 	icomm is a dog.
: : 	most will find it difficult, if not impossible to read pages 
: : loaded on it.

: Abvsolutely false. You have to use it on a server with the special 
: icomhost file at the root directory, e.g. the Finnish Freenet.

According to the documentation, it must be placed in the user's search
path, not the root directoory which emphatically should NOT be in the
search path.
-- 
	Chris F.A. Johnson                bq933@torfree.net
	***  Executive Director, Toronto Free-Net Inc.  ***
	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
	http://www.interlog.com/~cfaj     cfaj@interlog.com

Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:18:01 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: : Abvsolutely false. You have to use it on a server with the special 
: : icomhost file at the root directory, e.g. the Finnish Freenet.

: According to the documentation, it must be placed in the user's search
: path, not the root directoory which emphatically should NOT be in the
: search path.

Unfortunately you are confusing two issues; the icomhost that must be in 
the root directory of the server and the 'sz' which must be in the search 
path of the user. 'sz' is for z-modem downloads. I believe it is already 
in every users search path (however, most probably disabled).

Please to understand what you read.

Or is it, if you cannot convince them, confuse them?
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

1n8B.B0F.0.bloor@torfree.net>
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: 

Kenneth Edward Smith (cg591@torfree.net) wrote:

: Now, let's not try to revive the bicycle for Nabil thread...
: It died a well-justified death many months ago...  :-)

Unfortunately, I alredy bought a new bike. Thank you for the offer any way.

Why is it when I raise an important issue concerning the TFN, always a 
certain group of people revert it to personal put down? Are you gaining 
any grounds by that? 

Are you having fun? Hopefully you do.

Just coming from a board member makes it all highly questionable. 
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: bt351 (bt351@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: : 	icomm is a dog.
: : 	most will find it difficult, if not impossible to read pages 
: : loaded on it.

For once Geoffery and I agree on something Human!

: Abvsolutely false. You have to use it on a server with the special 
: icomhost file at the root directory, e.g. the Finnish Freenet.

Hello Nabil, I have it running my my Unix box and it's no better!!! 
although you don't have the computer knowledge that I do so it's really 
pointless to even try and explain in a kids term!!


: : 	definitely NO support for frames, tables etc.

: It DOES support frames and tables. See the fact sheet. 

No it doesn't.. but how would you know... you've never tried running the 
server and client software becuase you love win95 and would never take 
the time to try everything..

: : 	this is the best reason to stick to lynx to come along in some time.

agreed... TFN should stick with Lynx until the resources are there!
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net 
		ICQ#: 6453134

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: : 1. When a user logged in to the TFN accesses a web page on 'not'
: : 	The 'not' web server get very little traffic, only a small 
: : 	portion of which comes from the TFN. There is so little traffic
: : 	that even if it all came from the TFN I doubt it would amount to a
: : 	significant portion of the bandwidth. 

: This should never be a matter of 'opinion'. Please provide statistics. 
: Again if what you say is true, what is the value of the not.torfree.net 
: for the average TFN user then? If even the average TFN user does not care 
: to visit not.torfree.net. I am not doubting what you say. I totally agree 
: with that part, which is all the good reason to disconnect the office web 
: server or to use absolutely by the IRC committee and information 
: providers only to facilitate the transition to HTML menus. All other 
: accounts would then have to be cancelled (e.g. Sasha, Jordan, etc.)

Hello DICKHEAD.. my NOT account has been cancelled... I no longer work as 
a volunteer for TFN, so the only account that I have is this one..

: : 2. When a volunteer logs on to not from one of the TFN servers.
: : 	There is rarely more than one person logged on to 'not' at any
: : 	time and most of those are not using a TFN server. When they
: : 	telnet in from another system or from another office computer,
: : 	they use no TFN bandwidth. And most of the time there is no one
: : 	logged in to 'not'.

: This is what I am saying. It uses bandwidth though, right? So if 
: strangers are using the bandwidth to get to information or web pages that 
: are of no interest to the average TFN user, and subsequently causing us 
: problems with Rogers/Ryerson, the thing to do is to stop this NOW. I do 
: not know why there is also gts.torfree.net and csas.torfree.net. Please 
: do not confuse the readers by saying that the GTS is Bruce's server. This 
: is only partly true; www.gts.com IS Bruce's server, not gts.torfree.net. 

: : 3. When an office volunteer or visitor uses 'not' to connect to the TFN.
: : 	This is the cheapest possible way to connect to the TFN
: : 	from the office. Since 'not.torfree.net' is connected to the
: : 	Ryerson network, we use it to telnet to the TFN. It uses no phone
: : 	lines, and most of its use is very low bandwidth.

: Duh. The Ryerson Network is directly connected to the TFN. You do not 
: need to have a special server at the office to be able to connect to the TFN.

As stated before... The not server does many other things than what you 
know of Nabil, It handles when other programs dealing with the TFN accounts..


: Why should a TFN member need to forward his mail to not.torfree.net? In 
: fact Sasha is the major user of the not.torfree.net as his main mail 
: recepient. When I was the office administrator, I have zipped 5 MB - yes 
: MegaByte - worth of mail.


: : If not's usage of the TFN bandwidth from Rogers were increased tenfold,
: : the effect would still be negligible.

: Duh. Let Rogers/Ryerson say that.

I honestly think that Rogers and Ryerson would need to hit Nabil with a 
Hammer about 1 million times...
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net 
		ICQ#: 6453134

En1MoI.LCy.0.spadina@torfree.net> <En1osG.5Ju.0.queen@torfree.net>
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: 

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
 : On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:18:01 GMT, Nabil El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: : : Abvsolutely false. You have to use it on a server with the special 
: : : icomhost file at the root directory, e.g. the Finnish Freenet.

: : According to the documentation, it must be placed in the user's search
: : path, not the root directoory which emphatically should NOT be in the
: : search path.

That's Correct Chris.. and Nabil is wrong.. the icomhost software DOES 
NOT belong in the root directory... it SAYS DO NOT PLACE IN ROOT DIRECTORY

: Unfortunately you are confusing two issues; the icomhost that must be in 
: the root directory of the server and the 'sz' which must be in the search 
: path of the user. 'sz' is for z-modem downloads. I believe it is already 
: in every users search path (however, most probably disabled).

the sz command in in every users search path Nabil.. how do you think the 
General membership is able to download???? Magic??
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net 
		ICQ#: 6453134

In article <En1rI4.JFH.0.bloor@torfree.net>,
Jordan Blanchard <cy328@torfree.net> wrote:
|Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
|
|: not know why there is also gts.torfree.net and csas.torfree.net. Please 
|: do not confuse the readers by saying that the GTS is Bruce's server. This 
|: is only partly true; www.gts.com IS Bruce's server, not gts.torfree.net. 


	www.gts.ORG & www.gts.NET live on the system I
	am currently typing on.  gts.torfree.net is also
	the exact same system, accessed via an alias.


|: : 3. When an office volunteer or visitor uses 'not' to connect to the TFN.
|: : 	This is the cheapest possible way to connect to the TFN
|: : 	from the office. Since 'not.torfree.net' is connected to the
|: : 	Ryerson network, we use it to telnet to the TFN. It uses no phone
|: : 	lines, and most of its use is very low bandwidth.
|
|: Duh. The Ryerson Network is directly connected to the TFN. You do not 
|: need to have a special server at the office to be able to connect to the TFN.


	The Ryerson network is not connected directly to
	the TFN at Roger's site in any way.  Rogers happens
	to have provided a connection to the Ryerson media
	centre, but that has no relation to the TFN's systems
	(packets from "not" to "torfree.net" are routed thru
	Ryerson's ONet connection).


-- 
  ,u,	 Bruce Becker		Toronto, Ontario	1 416 699 1868
a /i/	 Internet: bdb@gts.org	Uucp: ...!gts!bdb
 `\o\-e	 Complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that
 _< /_	 	the Conspiracy is functioning effectively   - N'Existe Pas

Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
<snip>
: : Unfortunately you are confusing two issues; the icomhost that must be in 
: : the root directory of the server and the 'sz' which must be in the search 
: : path of the user. 'sz' is for z-modem downloads. I believe it is already 
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : in every users search path (however, most probably disabled).
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: the sz command in in every users search path Nabil.. how do you think the 
: General membership is able to download???? Magic??

That is exactly what I said. I also added that it is most probably 
disabled. 

Next time I will write more slowly for your sake ;-)
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

David Jones (dej@inode.org) wrote:

: Hah.  I wish.

: I received my membership only a few days before yours.

: (aa018 actually granted membership status vs. ad613)

: Up until Nov. 4, 1994, I may have had an account, but I was not a member.

: The "founders" were the eight people who incorporated the TFN and ruled the
: Board with an iron fist for over 18 months before the first elections.

Well David, whether you was a member or not at the time, it is known that 
you had 'an influence' on the decisions being made so early in the TFN 
life. If I am not mistaken, you was the one that negotiated with CSAS and 
decided some issues on their contract.

Please note that I really mean this in a very respectful way. You are a 
very valuable member of the TFN.

Sincerely,
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: Hello DICKHEAD.. my NOT account has been cancelled... I no longer work as 
: a volunteer for TFN, so the only account that I have is this one..

Hello Dick with no head ;-) No wonder why your account and your 
'volunteering' is not welcome. It is unacceptable to contact other 
networks claiming that you are TFN sysadm. to gain privileges.

<snip>

: As stated before... The not server does many other things than what you 
: know of Nabil, It handles when other programs dealing with the TFN accounts..

The only thing that deals with TFN accounts is the registration system. 
The registration system truely is using both the office computer and the 
'server' machine. However, It is not connected/related to the 'not' 
server. The server is completely isolated from the registration system. 

Think of this - if you are capable of thinking - the registration system 
was working long before Ed. started the web server. You are drawing the 
wrong conclusion from the fact that the registration system can be run 
from the machine that hosts the server.

: I honestly think that Rogers and Ryerson would need to hit Nabil with a 
: Hammer about 1 million times...

Well, we shall see about that. Promise ;-)
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

En1rst.K73.0.bloor@torfree.net>
1;2;c1;2;c1;2;cOrganization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: 

Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: Hello Nabil, I have it running my my Unix box and it's no better!!! 
: although you don't have the computer knowledge that I do so it's really 
: pointless to even try and explain in a kids term!!

What? A Unix machine? Just read the fact sheet carefully. It is only for 
Windows and OS/2. No wonder you had problems. Even if you are using 
X-Windows, I doubt that the program is meant to deal with that. 

: No it doesn't.. but how would you know... you've never tried running the 
: server and client software becuase you love win95 and would never take 
: the time to try everything..

Oh yes. I admit to loving the Windows 95, with an eye on Windows NT. They 
are the best. As about taking the time to try everything, it has never 
been my philosophy in life to try 'everything'. I go with what is known 
to work, but if there is something I like, I am on the bleeding edge of 
the technology, e.g. I am always one of the first to install and run beta 
versions of different browsers (netscape, Internet Explorer, and some 
multilingual browsers you may never have heared of). My hobby is web page 
design, particualrly multilingual. I have been awarded for that by none 
theless than BYTE magazine. I am still receiving free subscription since 
1997. There also have been free software awarded to me. I am also the 
ringmaster of the Arabic Language on the WWW. 

So, it is true that I am not yet interested/studied server software. 
However, I intend to change that very soon by taking courses in Windows 
NT. Do not get me wrong, at one time, I had a news server, an FTP server 
and a WWW server on my machine. However, due to financial troubles I had 
to give up my ISP account, with a static IP address :-(and my telephone)-:

: : : 	this is the best reason to stick to lynx to come along in some time.

: agreed... TFN should stick with Lynx until the resources are there!

Agreed too. In fact I-Comm must use Lynx. You are confusing two issues. 
Ordinary TFN members cannot run lynx off their machines like may be you 
and me with ISP accounts. They can only use the server Lynx. So, do not 
confuse the issues. 

It is amazing that there is a consensus on "If you cannot convince them, 
confuse them". 
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Thank you whoever faked this post. 

Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: Jim Butterfield wrote:
: > 
: > Judging by past postings, Nabil doesn't have a clear idea of what the
: > word "bandwidth" means. 


: This kind of ruppish is just what we have come to expect from you Jim
: Butterfield.  You little man have no right to second guess me. 
: Bandwidth means how wide are the bands, and wavelength of course is how
: long the waves of transmission are.

: Please try to understand what you read.  And stop posting crab and pure
: lice. And put it in the root directory.

: May common sense prevail.

: --
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Nabil M. El-Khodari		You can fool all the people for some time  
: TFN IP				Or some people all the time
: 				But you cannot fool some of the people any of the time
: 				Actually I can't seem to ever fool anybody at all
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

	(some clucking prepended)

: Oh yes. I admit to loving the Windows 95, with an eye on Windows NT. They 
: are the best. 

	(read:  i could never figure out what to do at a prompt).

	the rest - pass - too easy.

: Agreed too. In fact I-Comm must use Lynx. You are confusing two issues. 
: Ordinary TFN members cannot run lynx off their machines like may be you 
: and me with ISP accounts. They can only use the server Lynx. So, do not 
: confuse the issues. 

	your explanation of the advantages of icomm leave something to be 
desired.  
	does it support java?
	doh!
	does it support common in-place html (or improve on html 
interpretation over what tfn presently uses)?
	doh!
	so what does it do?
	
	ummmm.  it lets me see pictures.
	doh?
	you can do that now.
	
	ummm.  isn't windows (supposed?) to allow some (flawed) multitasking?

	if you want the graphics, press "d" on the box and load it into 
your media player.
	viola!  (yes, that's viola as in the oversized violin).
	instant icomm.

: It is amazing that there is a consensus on "If you cannot convince them, 
: confuse them". 

	right.  and a sucker is born ever minute.
	they won't get your 40 bucks, eh?

-- 

bt351 (bt351@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:

: 	(some clucking prepended)

: : Oh yes. I admit to loving the Windows 95, with an eye on Windows NT. They 
: : are the best. 

: 	(read:  i could never figure out what to do at a prompt).

: 	the rest - pass - too easy.

: : Agreed too. In fact I-Comm must use Lynx. You are confusing two issues. 
: : Ordinary TFN members cannot run lynx off their machines like may be you 
: : and me with ISP accounts. They can only use the server Lynx. So, do not 
: : confuse the issues. 

: 	your explanation of the advantages of icomm leave something to be 
: desired.  
: 	does it support java?

No Java support... 

: 	doh!
: 	does it support common in-place html (or improve on html 
: interpretation over what tfn presently uses)?

The dam I-comm Program can't handle Frames properly.. It sucks, I don't 
see how the company can make ANY money!


: 	right.  and a sucker is born ever minute.
: 	they won't get your 40 bucks, eh?

Geoff, Just think, we could call the company of I-comm and tell they all 
the pirating that Nabil is Doing with there software! I think I'm going 
to try the I-comm Software on the Finnish and see how bad it looks, 
admiting I think I forget to set-up a few programs on my unix box for the 
server..
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net or Averix@colosseum.com
		ICQ#: 6453134

Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: I-Comm once again!!! IMHO, I-Comm is the way out for most of TFN's 
: current probelms that can be summarized as follows:

: - User unsatisfaction with the current interface.
: - Sponsors search for graphical-enabled, sound-enabled platforms to put 
: their ads. 

I don't know how you can support such a cheesy browser.  IMHO, I-Comm 
bites the big one, big time.  I've used it all of maybe two time before I 
got rid of it...it's the biggest waste of space I've had on my computer 
in a long time...

: THE USUAL COUNTER-POINTS:

: A- TFN does not have enough band width to allow its users graphical access 
:    to the WWW.

: The answer to that is the ideal situation is for the users to use this 
: browser within TFN. If we provide a 'graphical' menu system (which 
: coincides with the requirements of the information providers to use HTML 
: instead of the more difficult and less featured 'menu system'). The link 
: to such files would be a Lynx link. 
: Some of the users will however try to access sites outside TFN. This is a 
: self-limiting phenomenon, as most will discover that:

: a. It takes so much time to 'download' the html.
: b. The HTML is first downloaded to the user's computer which will 
:    eventually exhaust its resources.
: c. The TFN philosophy is built around competing for scarce resources, 
:    whether that be the telephone lines or the band-width. If too many people 
:    are using the bandwidth, all the connections will become slower.

: Solutions to TFN bandwidth problems:

: a. Discontinue not.torfree.net and all its afilliated sites 
:    (gts.torfree.net, etc.)
: b. Cancel all accounts outside the Toronto area (those people use telnet 
:    to reach TFN). They are most likely the least contributing members to the 
:    donations. They also must have other accounts to reach the TFN, so no 
:    harm will be done. Such approach has been implemented by one of the 
:    Finnish FreeNets. 

I'd love to see some proof of the statement made above.  I AM one of 
those who live outside of Toronto...I do not have another account with 
which I use to access the TFN.  This is the only access I have as a 
matter of fact.  As for us being the "least contributing members to the 
donations" I'd love to see some hardcore proof of that.  Don't go around 
generalizing like that.  So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not 
mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only 
connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the 
money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.


: B- The TFN does not have enough volunteer resources to implement new 
:    systems nor provide user support for them.

: Please read carefully the information listed below for the system 
: requirements regarding the server. Only one file need to be included in 
: the root directory. THAT IS IT.
: 1;2;c
: Support can be provided - as it usually is - by other users in the 
: newsgroups. May be we can also establish a new newsgroup just for that 
: purpose.

: WHAT IS NEEDED:

: 1- Provide the I-COMM browser in the public download area for the users 
:    to experiment with. It is an excellent 'terminal' for use even with 
:    current setting of TFN. This will avoid actually TFN users having to 
:    subscribe to such freenets as the Finnish Freenet to be able to download 
:    the software (by the way; why have the download feature been disabled in 
:    the new Lynx?).

To my knowledge they haven't...they work just fine for me...

: 2- Make the decision to use I-Comm as 'THE' TFN browser and install the 
:    server side file.

Perhaps you should ask the membership as a whole in the next election.  
After all, this would affect us all, wouldn't it? (Except for those who 
live outside Toronto, who have been presumably cut off by then, since 
they don't contribute enough $$$)

: 3- Make the information known to our users (asking them for donations, as 
:    we are improving the service).

Again, ask them first.

: 4- Immediate shift to HTML menues. Make this information known to our 
:    'potential sponsors' and of course users and above all Information 
:    Providers.

Which would mean that we would have no choice and have to switch over to 
I-Comm...:P

: C- GUI access would affect those users preferring text-only.

: Not at all. This approach is different than the PPP/SLIP alternative. 

: D- Most TFN users will not be able to use the new features.

: Again wrong. The browser only needs a 386. I have bought one from the 
: Goodwell (though I still have my Pentium) for only $35 (an IBM PS/2 Model 
: 70). Also all libraries that ar affilliated with TFN can install the 
: I-Comm browser for TFN users. The desk space required is minimal and the 
: browser is better than those currently in use by the libraries. Those who 
: cannot afford a second-hand 386 can always use the library. I have been 
: doing that - as I did not have a telephone line, now I have one - as at 
: least 2 persons that I happen to know closely ;-)

So, either get I-Comm or go and (presumably) wait in the library to log 
on to the TFN.

: In the current situation the TFN is in, and with the board's decision to 
: take the easy way by forwarding the bill to the users - something that I 
: basically do not agree with - we might as well show that we are 
: 'improving' the service for the users.

I have seen no bill...

In any case...if you want to respond, you'll have to mail me, since I do 
not frquent this NG...
-- 

Matthew Baillie (cm096@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: : I-Comm once again!!! IMHO, I-Comm is the way out for most of TFN's 
: : current probelms that can be summarized as follows:

<snip>

: I don't know how you can support such a cheesy browser.  IMHO, I-Comm 
: bites the big one, big time.  I've used it all of maybe two time before I 
: got rid of it...it's the biggest waste of space I've had on my computer 
: in a long time...

May be, compared to what? It is a space waste if not capable of 
delivering graphics through a network using FreePort. What other 
terminal/browser does that? However, I do not agree with your assertion. 
Even as just a terminal, it has more features and I belief - stand to be 
corrected - occupies less space than say hyper-terminal. The point is may 
be you have not experimented with the new features in your two-time usage.

: : THE USUAL COUNTER-POINTS:

: : A- TFN does not have enough band width to allow its users graphical access 
: :    to the WWW.

<snip>

: : Solutions to TFN bandwidth problems:

: : a. Discontinue not.torfree.net and all its afilliated sites 
: :    (gts.torfree.net, etc.)
: : b. Cancel all accounts outside the Toronto area (those people use telnet 
: :    to reach TFN). They are most likely the least contributing members to the 
: :    donations. They also must have other accounts to reach the TFN, so no 
: :    harm will be done. Such approach has been implemented by one of the 
: :    Finnish FreeNets. 

: I'd love to see some proof of the statement made above.  I AM one of 
: those who live outside of Toronto...I do not have another account with 
: which I use to access the TFN.  This is the only access I have as a 
: matter of fact.  As for us being the "least contributing members to the 
: donations" I'd love to see some hardcore proof of that.  Don't go around 
: generalizing like that.  So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not 
: mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only 
: connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the 
: money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.

I'd love to see proof of any thing in the TFN :-) The lack of data makes 
decision-making just a matter of 'personal' opinion. I am basically 
speaking of the 'international' members. In my work at the office, the 
TFN had never received a letter from abroad with a check in it. However, 
my work there was very short. Again in the history of TFN, there may be 
one or two such letters - who knows?

Obviously if you live outside the GTA, and TFN is your only access, you 
are paying long distance charges to connect. Is that true? I do not 
believe so. It may be cheaper to join an ISP. So, where abouts do you 
live? Not that it really matters, as there always be exceptions.

My point is this, 'international' users link to the TFN using telnet, 
thus using more bandwidth. More often than not, they are also forwarding 
their e-mail to another account, thus making a double use of bandwidth 
than ordinary TFNers (once to receive the mail and once to forward it - 
though of course I stand to be corrected as usual by the techie-types). 
More often than not, they wouldn't send donations at all. Our mandate 
should be crystallized to serving only the GTA. Those from outside the 
area are to be encouraged to join freenets in their vicinity or even form 
new ones (ideally, but not practically).

: : B- The TFN does not have enough volunteer resources to implement new 
: :    systems nor provide user support for them.

: : Please read carefully the information listed below for the system 
: : requirements regarding the server. Only one file need to be included in 
: : the root directory. THAT IS IT.
: : 1;2;c
: : Support can be provided - as it usually is - by other users in the 
: : newsgroups. May be we can also establish a new newsgroup just for that 
: : purpose.

: : WHAT IS NEEDED:

: : 1- Provide the I-COMM browser in the public download area for the users 
: :    to experiment with. It is an excellent 'terminal' for use even with 
: :    current setting of TFN. This will avoid actually TFN users having to 
: :    subscribe to such freenets as the Finnish Freenet to be able to download 
: :    the software (by the way; why have the download feature been disabled in 
: :    the new Lynx?).

: To my knowledge they haven't...they work just fine for me...

: : 2- Make the decision to use I-Comm as 'THE' TFN browser and install the 
: :    server side file.

: Perhaps you should ask the membership as a whole in the next election.  
: After all, this would affect us all, wouldn't it? (Except for those who 
: live outside Toronto, who have been presumably cut off by then, since 
: they don't contribute enough $$$)

: : 3- Make the information known to our users (asking them for donations, as 
: :    we are improving the service).

: Again, ask them first.

: : 4- Immediate shift to HTML menues. Make this information known to our 
: :    'potential sponsors' and of course users and above all Information 
: :    Providers.

: Which would mean that we would have no choice and have to switch over to 
: I-Comm...:P

: : C- GUI access would affect those users preferring text-only.

: : Not at all. This approach is different than the PPP/SLIP alternative. 

: : D- Most TFN users will not be able to use the new features.

: : Again wrong. The browser only needs a 386. I have bought one from the 
: : Goodwell (though I still have my Pentium) for only $35 (an IBM PS/2 Model 
: : 70). Also all libraries that ar affilliated with TFN can install the 
: : I-Comm browser for TFN users. The desk space required is minimal and the 
: : browser is better than those currently in use by the libraries. Those who 
: : cannot afford a second-hand 386 can always use the library. I have been 
: : doing that - as I did not have a telephone line, now I have one - as at 
: : least 2 persons that I happen to know closely ;-)

: So, either get I-Comm or go and (presumably) wait in the library to log 
: on to the TFN.

: : In the current situation the TFN is in, and with the board's decision to 
: : take the easy way by forwarding the bill to the users - something that I 
: : basically do not agree with - we might as well show that we are 
: : 'improving' the service for the users.

: I have seen no bill...

: In any case...if you want to respond, you'll have to mail me, since I do 
: not frquent this NG...
: -- 
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:23:14 GMT, Matthew Baillie (cm096@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Solutions to TFN bandwidth problems:

: : a. Discontinue not.torfree.net and all its afilliated sites 
: :    (gts.torfree.net, etc.)
: : b. Cancel all accounts outside the Toronto area (those people use telnet 
: :    to reach TFN). They are most likely the least contributing members to the 
: :    donations. They also must have other accounts to reach the TFN, so no 
: :    harm will be done. Such approach has been implemented by one of the 
: :    Finnish FreeNets. 

Nabil, when you can demonstrate that either of the above would have any
effect on the TFN bandwidth (after you have been shown repeatedly that
they don't)  we'll listen to you. 

: I'd love to see some proof of the statement made above.  I AM one of 
: those who live outside of Toronto...I do not have another account with 
: which I use to access the TFN.  This is the only access I have as a 
: matter of fact.  As for us being the "least contributing members to the 
: donations" I'd love to see some hardcore proof of that.  Don't go around 
: generalizing like that.  So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not 
: mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only 
: connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the 
: money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.

Just because you cannot afford to make a donation does not make you any
the less welcome. That is why we are here.

-- 
	Chris F.A. Johnson                bq933@torfree.net
	***  Executive Director, Toronto Free-Net Inc.  ***
	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
	http://www.interlog.com/~cfaj     cfaj@interlog.com

Let me summarize this in 5 words or less so that Nabil can understand
myself, Chris, Geoff and Jordan:

I-Comm is good for nothing.

*wow, 5 words exactly..not bad...*

Matthew Baillie wrote:
> So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not
> mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only
> connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the
> money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.
> 

If you have enough money to buy a computer you surely have enough to
make some sort of contribution to TFN. If every freeloader contributed a
measly $5/month I'm sure TFN wouldn't have the money problems they do
have.

I told you that you have a way with words.

Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:23:14 GMT, Matthew Baillie (cm096@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: : : Solutions to TFN bandwidth problems:

: : : a. Discontinue not.torfree.net and all its afilliated sites 
: : :    (gts.torfree.net, etc.)
: : : b. Cancel all accounts outside the Toronto area (those people use telnet 
: : :    to reach TFN). They are most likely the least contributing members to the 
: : :    donations. They also must have other accounts to reach the TFN, so no 
: : :    harm will be done. Such approach has been implemented by one of the 
: : :    Finnish FreeNets. 

: Nabil, when you can demonstrate that either of the above would have any
: effect on the TFN bandwidth (after you have been shown repeatedly that
: they don't)  we'll listen to you. 

Tell you what. You are the man with the technical and - as the excutive 
director - administrative powers. Why not provide DATA that it does not 
affect TFN? You know DATA? No not that Star Treck figure ;-)

To start with, when we shall see the last year financial statement. I 
hope it will not include lies like the one you made at the AGM. Who cares 
any way??

: : I'd love to see some proof of the statement made above.  I AM one of 
: : those who live outside of Toronto...I do not have another account with 
: : which I use to access the TFN.  This is the only access I have as a 
: : matter of fact.  As for us being the "least contributing members to the 
: : donations" I'd love to see some hardcore proof of that.  Don't go around 
: : generalizing like that.  So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not 
: : mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only 
: : connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the 
: : money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.

: Just because you cannot afford to make a donation does not make you any
: the less welcome. That is why we are here.

: -- 
: 	Chris F.A. Johnson                bq933@torfree.net
: 	***  Executive Director, Toronto Free-Net Inc.  ***
: 	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
: 	http://www.interlog.com/~cfaj     cfaj@interlog.com
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Kenneth Edward Smith (cg591@torfree.net) wrote:

Polluting the newsgroups with the trash of some TFN board members.

: One important point; it does cost $40 (US, I believe; currently about $57 
: Cdn).  TFN cannot distribute this software as our standard (or even 
: secondary) terminal package without noting that in order to be used 
: beyond a reasonable trial period, it _must_ be registered.  You have 
: counselled people to use it without registration, noting that few people 
: in your experience ever register shareware.  This is not the type of 
: attitude that I find welcome; the ideals of the community networking 
: movement and shareware are very similar, and the idea that you can ignore 
: shareware registration is incompatible at its core with those ideals.

On the contrary, I am using a licenced version to Finnish Freenet users. 
though it is only version 1.15 and not the currently available 1.2. I 
have high moral standards regarding copyrights and rights of any sort. 
You will have to prove that I have counselled people to use it without 
registration, though I acknowledged it is done. I did not 'note' any 
thing. I posed a question to you when was the last time you registered a 
shareware? Please publish that news article and let people judge for 
themselves. 

My suggestion specifically is the TFN contact I-Comm and get the same 
deal the Finnish Freenet had, almost certainly for free. This is what I 
am suggesting, may be I had to spell out for people like you.


: Actually, inadequate to allow large scale downloading, period.  This is 
: why ftp is not generally supported.  Graphics are especially large users 
: of bandwidth, however, and use of WWW browsers which grab web graphics 
: would stress our connection to the internet, our connection from the 
: terminal servers to the file/program servers, and be limited by the modem 
: speeds currently supported.

You still do not get the point. My point is we should make every effort 
to attract TFN users to local TFN content. This is the challenge that I 
know the IRC is welling to accept. There would be no 'bandwidth' 
involved, only telephone lines. However, according to the current 
attitude that TFN membership is a 'donation' specifically from board 
members and system administrators, no real effort is done to attract the 
membership to the content. All excuses..... Of course one way to make the 
TFN attractive is graphics. Attractive not only to users but to sponsors, 
but obviously neither of these are your concern. How do you expect the 
TFN to survive? Or may be again that is exactly what you are doing (sorry 
for the open-ended meaning).

: : <snip>

: I'll say this again slowly...not.torfree.net has -noooooooo- impact on 
: TFN bandwidth use.

I'll type this S  L  O  W  L  Y.  I T   D O E S ! !  Both TFN and Ryerson 
are using the same T1 connection.

: I have seen no support for this idea from members other than yourself.  
: If there ever is a larger feeling that this is necessary, we can consider 
: it.  I would note that many of the people who telnet in are in Toronto 
: anyway, and do so from accounts at their workplace during non-peak hours 
: for TFN.

Oh, what a deduction.... So members of the TFN are mostly working and 
using their office computers to connect to the TFN.... Hmmm.... On what 
DATA did you reach that magnificent conclusion?

: There is a difference between uninformed and informed opinion, even when 
: the data are anecdotal in nature.  As to the matter of "international" 
: members, in your work at the office did you ever compile data on how many 
: such members there are?  And this seems like retcon to me; you said 
: "outside Toronto," not "international."

Well, I worked at the office for exactly 2 weeks. As I was concentrating 
on grasping whatever Ed. Carrier has to teach me, not to mention also 
learning from the volunteer accountant who did the financial statement 
for the previous year (as a treasurer), there have been very little time 
for me to collect data of any significant value. May be you have...

: This proposal is unlikely to have any significant effect on bandwidth 
: use; it might help the mail spool, however.  Even easier if this was seen 
: to be necessary would be to remove the ability to forward mail, or to 
: include it as a premium service under the tiered services arrangement.  
: This would be a change to existing levels of service, and I think the 
: current board would want to get extensive membership input before doing 
: this.

Now you may be talking.

: Toronto and the GTA are not the same thing.  He said he was outside 
: Toronto.  And some people have connected by long distance to TFN, using 
: off hours to keep the charges down.

Do you believe yourself? Any charge is too much compared to say Sprint 
Canada's unlimited access for $20/month. Why should someone pay long 
distance charges to connect to the TFN? Unless of course they are also 
using their work telephone lines ;-)

: Mail is text and inherently lower volume than graphics.  While there is a 
: double hit on bandwidth due to forwarding mail, this is not a major 
: problem in our case.  The main impact of high mail volumes is on the mail 
: server and mail spool, and servicing people who are on mailing lists has 
: been the biggest impact according to our sysadmins.

Who said that those forwarding their e-mail are not subscribing to 
mailing lists? Unless there is a clear analysis of different uses of 
bandwidth by the TFN, believe me, the mail - in spite of what you said - 
is a major burden. It is what 70% of the people join the internet for.

: As to how often they send in donations; pure speculation.  If this had 
: the appearance of being a true issue with system utilization, it might be 
: worthy of follow up, but as it stands the e-mail to fax gateway 
: implemented by Nabil was a much greater load on system resources than the 
: matters discussed here; rather ironic that Nabil keeps coming up with 
: more ideas to stress the hardware beyond its limits while pointing the 
: finger at others.

Mail to fax is a service to the users. Something that the board before 
the one headed by Colin McGregor approved in spite of severe opposition 
by the system administrator. We are here to provide services to our 
users, to teach them how to make benefit of the telecommunication 
revolution. But then of course, you have much better objectives.

: The help desk will end up fielding calls for help from TFN users, and I 
: don't think the response "check the newsgroups" will be acceptable to 
: those phoning in.  Especially if the people phoning in are having a hard 
: time getting I-comm to work to reach TFN to read newsgroups...

Duh.

: And the software will not be implemented without analysis of its 
: implications for TFN system security; note that the concept of security 
: includes ensuring authenticity, privacy, availability and integrity for 
: the system and its users.  Example:  Some spammers have been forging 
: headers to indicate TFN as the source for their spam.  Measures which 
: permit us to prove to other sysadmins that these messages do not 
: originate here must be in place; this is an authenticity issue.  
: Example:  Documented holes in UNIX can allow outsiders access to TFN 
: accounts if not addressed; these holes must be patched using the now 
: known workarounds; this is a privacy, integrity and authenticity issue.  
: Example:  Mail bombs can overload the mail spool and cause us to be 
: unable as ordinary users to use e-mail; this is an availability and 
: integrity issue.  All of these are aspects of security, and apply as much 
: to TFN users as to the Bank of Montreal or CSIS (no, I don't mean 
: CSAS...).  We would have to ensure that supporting I-comm would not open 
: security holes in our system.  This will take the effort of HWSW 
: volunteers.

What a browser/terminal has to do with 'system security'? It may be the 
other way around, people who use specific types of browsers (as happened 
with one of IE versions) are liable to some security risks... However, 
this is the first time I hear the other way around.

Nevertheless, you are giving examples about mail and newsgroups, while it 
is true that you can send e-mail directly from I-Comm, yet it had to go 
through the mail server. News? it can only use the software available at 
the server to read/post to the news. 

Of course, security to you may have other 'dimensions' including system 
administrator security. As I recall a proposal by Sun Systems to do a 
security audit (free) of the TFN system was turned down. Wonder why?

: Even as modified above by Nabil to refer to "international" users, I 
: would not support this if it were placed as a motion before the board at 
: this time.  It is enough of a change to warrant membership input first, 
: but unless I see many people asking for this change I wouldn't even 
: support seeking such input at this time.

Yes. We want to be international. May be we should go to the UN for funding.

: Any addition of GUI access will require IPs to use _both_ text and HTML; 
: we have no intention of dropping text-based access for the near future 
: and any IP will be expected to serve all users in accordance with the 
: principle of universality of access.


This is where I-Comm comes in. Keep your old FreePort software as a 
tourist attraction, but make people who want graphics get it too. That 
does not only mean users, but more importantly sponsors.

: Not enough.  You propose to require all members to use I-comm if they want 
: to read the IPs' offerings; that is what the switch to using HTML for the 
: menus clearly implies.  Anyone still usig a text interface would be left 
: behind.

Duh. I-Comm is basically a T E R M I N A L. There is no change requested 
in your O/S. How did you reach that conclusion?

: : : : D- Most TFN users will not be able to use the new features.

: WRONG.  The _most needy_ users of TFN will not be able to use the new 
: features.

Duh. How is that? O.K. I do have this fancy 56K modem, what can I do if 
the maximum TFN can support is 14.4? How much is a 14.4 modem now in the 
market (of course the second hand market, it is not available as new)? 

And please do not give me the crab about Alex Terminal users. A 386 can 
be bought (when available) from GoodWeel for $35. I have bought one. It 
is an IBM PS/2 70.

: You would then _require_ people who access TFN from home to go to the 
: library.  

Thanks to you, we now know that most TFN users connect from their work...

: Those with physical limitations would find this inequitable; 
: this includes those who have various physical challenges as well as the 
: elderly.  And the cost for 386 machines is now about $50 for the system 
: unit only; your $35 find was rare (and you don't state what came with 
: that; HD, monitor, keyboard; was it working as it came home from the 
: store; where is this Goodwill store so other users can go there--the ones 
: I've seen have Commodore 64s, some functioning XTs and some 
: half-disassembled 286s, but no intact 386s yet).  There are many people, 
: it might surprise you to know, for whom running out and spending over 
: $100 for a complete, functioning system is not an option, or at least a 
: difficult one.

Listen. It is a chance encounter of course. You have to go their 
regularly looking for a 'good' system.

: : : So, either get I-Comm or go and (presumably) wait in the library to log 
: : : on to the TFN.

: : : : In the current situation the TFN is in, and with the board's decision to 
: : : : take the easy way by forwarding the bill to the users - something that I 
: : : : basically do not agree with - we might as well show that we are 
: : : : 'improving' the service for the users.

: : : I have seen no bill...

: : : In any case...if you want to respond, you'll have to mail me, since I do 
: : : not frquent this NG...

: Nabil also attributes the actions of the previous board to this one.  
: While it takes time, we are looking at other funding sources.  As 
: progress is made, we will report back to the membership.

Oh yes, like calling the contact that you sought the board nomination 
for? When will you do it???

: I consider this to be a dead issue, and don't _intend_ to follow up to 
: this or related threads (although I reserve the right to do so if it 
: appears warranted).  If other members feel this scheme should be followed 
: up on, please let us on the board know and we'll take it under 
: advisement; else this will be filed with Nabil's other unpopular and 
: ill-advised schemes as one more historical curiosity.

Yes, yes. Amen...
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:51:10 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: I told you that you have a way with words.

That's easy when one has something reasonable to say.

: Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Nabil, when you can demonstrate that either of the above would have any
: : effect on the TFN bandwidth (after you have been shown repeatedly that
: : they don't)  we'll listen to you. 

: Tell you what. You are the man with the technical and - as the excutive 
: director - administrative powers. Why not provide DATA that it does not 
: affect TFN? You know DATA? No not that Star Treck figure ;-)

Why? There is no reason to suppose that it does; you certainly have not
provided any. Besides, your inability to understand simple facts, even
when they are stated clearly, would make such an effort a waste of time,
even if there were any reason to do it. 

I could draw a parallel to the following (fictitious) scenario:

CFAJ: Nabil's phone line was cut off because he was spending what little
money he had on booze.

Nabil: That's not true. As a believer in Islam, I do not drink.

CFAJ: So you say. Can you prove it? Please post a detailed report of your
expenses so we can determine whether what you say is true.
-- 
	Chris F.A. Johnson                bq933@torfree.net
	***  Executive Director, Toronto Free-Net Inc.  ***
	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
	http://www.interlog.com/~cfaj     cfaj@interlog.com

: : Nabil M. El-Khodari (falcon@torfree.net) wrote:
: : : I-Comm once again!!! IMHO, I-Comm is the way out for most of TFN's 
: : : current probelms that can be summarized as follows:

   (clipped from the cnet website - trimmed for brevity)
   
   [51]The shell game   

       The best way to browse the Web from a shell account is with Lynx.
           ========
       I-Comm

       For the shell user with a serious case of PPP envy, there are a
                                  =======================

       few products that emulate standard graphical browsers like
       Navigator and IE. One of the most popular is I-Comm, from Talent
       Communications. I-Comm is part communications program and part Web
       browser. It relies on the presence of a text browser like Lynx and
       downloads images to your local machine for display in a graphical,
       point-and-click environment. It's a neat idea, but we found it
       cumbersome and more painful than it's worth. If you're desperate
       ============================

       for graphics and can't get access to a [53]cheap PPP account, give
       it a try. Otherwise, stick to Lynx.
       
References

   1. http://www.cnet.com

-- 
   I've had it with MyLife 1.0. When will MyLife 1.01 be out ?

In article <EnEzMt.C1z.0.queen@torfree.net>, cm096@torfree.net is reputed to 
have said...

>I'd love to see some proof of the statement made above.  I AM one of 
>those who live outside of Toronto...I do not have another account with 
>which I use to access the TFN.  This is the only access I have as a 
>matter of fact.  As for us being the "least contributing members to the 
>donations" I'd love to see some hardcore proof of that.  Don't go around 
>generalizing like that.  So what if I don't make a donation!  It's not 
>mandatory that I do, is it?  Think about it though...if this is my only 
>connection, and I live outside of Toronto, do you think that I have the 
>money to make a donation?  I certainly don't.

For what it's worth, Matthew, this board member certainly appreciates your 
contribution to the TFN. Contributing to the community is a lot more than just 
sending in a checque. It is about contributing to the essence, ambiance and 
substance of the community. 

That being said, the "community" of the TFN is certainly not limited to the 
geographical confines for Toronto. After all, how can you say that a part of 
the Internet is restricted solely to one city? 

Users from outside Toronto not only add content to the TFN, but prove the fact 
that we are but part of a rapidly growing global community.

Whether you donate time, money, equipment, news articles, or even just plain 
look around the 'net, you and all others are always welcome to the fold of the 
Toronto Free-Net

Marc Bissonnette
Moderator, Board of Directors, Toronto Free-Net

-- 
-Marc Bissonnette
Internalysis
Corporate Competitive Intelligence, Research and Results

analyzer (analyzer@earthling.net) wrote:
: If you have enough money to buy a computer you surely have enough to
: make some sort of contribution to TFN. If every freeloader contributed a
: measly $5/month I'm sure TFN wouldn't have the money problems they do
: have.

Everyone has diffferent circumstances.  It's dangerous to make 
assumptions like that because they're not always correct.  The person may 
be using someone else's computer (a roommate or partner), or they may 
have acquired the computer in more prosperous times, or they might have 
been given the computer, or they may have scrimped and saved for months 
to buy a second hand one and have no money to spare beyond that, or they 
may have come into some money (tax return?), etc., etc., etc.

There is no such thing as a "freeloader" in Toronto Free-Net.  Our 
services are open to anyone regardless of their financial situation.  
That's one of the primary points in our mandate.  If people are able to 
donate, we hope they will donate according to their financial ability, 
but there is nothing that says someone HAS to donate anything.


Wendy
-- 

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
   "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." (John Wooden)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

In article <EnGxvG.A4I.0.sheppard@torfree.net>, ad613@torfree.net is reputed to 
have said...
>
<Snippage>
 
>You will have to prove that I have counselled people to use it without 
>registration, though I acknowledged it is done. I did not 'note' any 
>thing. I posed a question to you when was the last time you registered a 
>shareware? Please publish that news article and let people judge for 
>themselves. 

All right, here is the article in quesion, posted to the Paranoia Archives to 
save space in this message. While Nabil does not directly say "Do not register 
this" He does mention that you may continue to use the software fully with only 
the "Nag" messages to worry about.

Gotta love DejaNews!!!

Article is at:

http://www.internalysis.com/kooks/nabster/register1.htm

Visit the rest of the Paranoia Archives at:

http://www.internalysis.com/kooks/nabster

-- 
-Marc Bissonnette
Internalysis
Corporate Competitive Intelligence, Research and Results

Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:51:10 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: : I told you that you have a way with words.

: That's easy when one has something reasonable to say.

I doubt that ;-) People only play with words when the truth is not in 
their favour.

<snip>

: : Tell you what. You are the man with the technical and - as the excutive 
: : director - administrative powers. Why not provide DATA that it does not 
: : affect TFN? You know DATA? No not that Star Treck figure ;-)

: Why? There is no reason to suppose that it does; you certainly have not
: provided any. Besides, your inability to understand simple facts, even
: when they are stated clearly, would make such an effort a waste of time,
: even if there were any reason to do it. 

: I could draw a parallel to the following (fictitious) scenario:

Or Parallel to this:

NMK: Chris Johnson does not understand because of his high cholesterol 
from eating too much pork

CFAJ: That is not true. Nabil is a Muslim, he does not eat pork (as if 
this has any thing to do with the point Nabil is raising) and moreover I 
may be Jewsih [which I am not confirming nor denying] and would not eat 
Prok to begin with.

Now, in this type of 'dialogue' the main issues are dodged and trivia or 
secondary things, more than not of a personal nature, are used. Now in 
the above fictional dialogue, Chris did not answer the main 
question/allegation that he has a high cholesterol level. He typically 
takes the issue to other angles (now religious ;-) and play with words. 

Enjoy your games, Chris. Some people will not play it, or they are forced 
to, only blame yourself. You can never out-wit me. Ask Bob Allisat, he 
tried this. He was forced for the first time to put me in his kill file. 
Which might not be a bad idea 8^)

-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

Nabil, I bet most of the General Membership has put you in Kill file, I 
leave you becuase I love reading the Crap you try sending to everyone.. 
There's now a Mailing list Nabster-in-idiot that's on a lot of Mail 
servers.. It's quite funny... atleast 200 pople all around Canada thinks 
that your a DORK.. It's so Dam funny.. I love news groups and mail lists..

Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
: : On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:51:10 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
: : : I told you that you have a way with words.

: : That's easy when one has something reasonable to say.

: I doubt that ;-) People only play with words when the truth is not in 
: their favour.

: <snip>

: : : Tell you what. You are the man with the technical and - as the excutive 
: : : director - administrative powers. Why not provide DATA that it does not 
: : : affect TFN? You know DATA? No not that Star Treck figure ;-)

: : Why? There is no reason to suppose that it does; you certainly have not
: : provided any. Besides, your inability to understand simple facts, even
: : when they are stated clearly, would make such an effort a waste of time,
: : even if there were any reason to do it. 

: : I could draw a parallel to the following (fictitious) scenario:

: Or Parallel to this:

: NMK: Chris Johnson does not understand because of his high cholesterol 
: from eating too much pork

: CFAJ: That is not true. Nabil is a Muslim, he does not eat pork (as if 
: this has any thing to do with the point Nabil is raising) and moreover I 
: may be Jewsih [which I am not confirming nor denying] and would not eat 
: Prok to begin with.

: Now, in this type of 'dialogue' the main issues are dodged and trivia or 
: secondary things, more than not of a personal nature, are used. Now in 
: the above fictional dialogue, Chris did not answer the main 
: question/allegation that he has a high cholesterol level. He typically 
: takes the issue to other angles (now religious ;-) and play with words. 

: Enjoy your games, Chris. Some people will not play it, or they are forced 
: to, only blame yourself. You can never out-wit me. Ask Bob Allisat, he 
: tried this. He was forced for the first time to put me in his kill file. 
: Which might not be a bad idea 8^)

: -- 
: ---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
: Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
: IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
:                                   |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-
-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net or Averix@colosseum.com
		ICQ#: 6453134

Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil, I bet most of the General Membership has put you in Kill file, I 
: leave you becuase I love reading the Crap you try sending to everyone.. 
: There's now a Mailing list Nabster-in-idiot that's on a lot of Mail 
: servers.. It's quite funny... atleast 200 pople all around Canada thinks 
: that your a DORK.. It's so Dam funny.. I love news groups and mail lists..

He isn't just a dork.......
-- 
Nathan D Richards
Toronto, Canada.
WWW: http://www.sunspot.org/webmaster.html
IRC: nathanr21!nathanr@sunspot.org on EFnet (irc.passport.ca or irc.rift.com)

Nathan Richards (bm782@torfree.net) wrote:
: Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
: : Nabil, I bet most of the General Membership has put you in Kill file, I 
: : leave you becuase I love reading the Crap you try sending to everyone.. 
: : There's now a Mailing list Nabster-in-idiot that's on a lot of Mail 
: : servers.. It's quite funny... atleast 200 pople all around Canada thinks 
: : that your a DORK.. It's so Dam funny.. I love news groups and mail lists..

: He isn't just a dork.......

Actually, I must agree.. Gee I had a few words with people and they never 
heard anything of Nabil talking to them and these are people that he says 
he TALKED to... Come on Nabil, When are you going to tell the truth about 
people that you supposedly talked to and where's the names and info, 10 
bucks says, these are more of his BS LIES... until I see the info in my 
hands and the people confirming that he HAS so talked to them, it's just 
going to be Thrown in the GARABGE just like the rest of the BS lies goes 
from the Nabster-the-NO-BRAINER!! 

*GOD I love that.. NO-BRAINER*


-- 
Jordan Blanchard
Web Site: Http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/1172/
Email Addresses: cy328@torfree.net or Averix@colosseum.com
		ICQ#: 6453134

Jordan Blanchard (cy328@torfree.net) wrote:
: Nabil, I bet most of the General Membership has put you in Kill file, I 
: leave you becuase I love reading the Crap you try sending to everyone.. 
: There's now a Mailing list Nabster-in-idiot that's on a lot of Mail 
: servers.. It's quite funny... atleast 200 pople all around Canada thinks 
: that your a DORK.. It's so Dam funny.. I love news groups and mail lists..

Why not provide subscription instructions for people who do not know 
about this ;-)

LIAR
-- 
---------------------------O00Oo-   -o000O----------------------------
Nabil M. El-Khodari              \ / "Men use thought to justify their 
IP, TFN                           V  injustices, and speech to conceal 
                                  |  their thoughts"        -Voltaire-

On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari wrote:

> Why not provide subscription instructions for people who do not know 
> about this ;-)

Sure, if you want to subscribe, email Jordan.

> LIAR

And how the hell would YOU know if it's a lie or not?
Have you checked?
So shut the fuck up then.

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:28:00 GMT, in tor.general Naboob El-Koathanger wrote:

+  You can never out-wit me. Ask Bob Allisat, 

This is to sweat for words.

Nabil is sounding more and more like an evil french canadian from a mary
pickford film. "You can never out-wit me!" says the Dastardly Nabil!

Can you imagine him twirling his mustache?

But the cherry is "Just ask Bob Allisat."

Not only is this to rich for words, but this implies that Naboob out-wited the
original b00B!!!

I for one would like to see the evidence!

Please oh Mad Falcon when did you "out-wit" that crazy weasel b0B?

Please give us the facts!

One can scarcely imagine such a vigorous intellectual debate.

My heavens.

I love the line "Nobody can out-wit me. Ask Bob Allisat"

Pure Kook Gold!

ad613@torfree.net (Nabil "I can out-wit Bob Allisat" El-Khodari) wrote:

+  Chris F.A. Johnson (bq933@torfree.net) wrote:
+  : On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:51:10 GMT, Nabil Mohamed El-Khodari (ad613@torfree.net) wrote:
+  : : I told you that you have a way with words.
+  
+  : That's easy when one has something reasonable to say.
+  
+  I doubt that ;-) People only play with words when the truth is not in 
+  their favour.
+  
+  <snip>
+  
+  : : Tell you what. You are the man with the technical and - as the excutive 
+  : : director - administrative powers. Why not provide DATA that it does not 
+  : : affect TFN? You know DATA? No not that Star Treck figure ;-)
+  
+  : Why? There is no reason to suppose that it does; you certainly have not
+  : provided any. Besides, your inability to understand simple facts, even
+  : when they are stated clearly, would make such an effort a waste of time,
+  : even if there were any reason to do it. 
+  
+  : I could draw a parallel to the following (fictitious) scenario:
+  
+  Or Parallel to this:
+  
+  NMK: Chris Johnson does not understand because of his high cholesterol 
+  from eating too much pork
+  
+  CFAJ: That is not true. Nabil is a Muslim, he does not eat pork (as if 
+  this has any thing to do with the point Nabil is raising) and moreover I 
+  may be Jewsih [which I am not confirming nor denying] and would not eat 
+  Prok to begin with.
+  
+  Now, in this type of 'dialogue' the main issues are dodged and trivia or 
+  secondary things, more than not of a personal nature, are used. Now in 
+  the above fictional dialogue, Chris did not answer the main 
+  question/allegation that he has a high cholesterol level. He typically 
+  takes the issue to other angles (now religious ;-) and play with words. 
+  
+  Enjoy your games, Chris. Some people will not play it, or they are forced 
+  to, only blame yourself. You can never out-wit me. Ask Bob Allisat, he 
+  tried this. He was forced for the first time to put me in his kill file. 
+  Which might not be a bad idea 8^)

KotM evidence 1 to 5 posted in the archives!

-- 
-Marc Bissonnette
Internalysis
Corporate Competitive Intelligence, Research and Results