🚀 go-pugleaf

"Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com...
> My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
>
> And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
>
> My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
>
> I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
>
> Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
>
> My bill only comes in end of the month. This is the time when an
> argument is inevitable.
Who is your uk service provider? Once a phone has been switched on and is
logged on to a roaming network, it is treated as roaming *until* such time
as it is switched on and logged back on to it's home network. So if the
phone is switched off and someone calls it, it will be billed for both the
redirected call to the roaming network *and* the call back to voicemail. For
instance, on Orange, say someone arrives in Peking and switches on their
phone, then turns it off when they go to bed that night. The phone is now
registered as roaming in China. Someone in England phones them but because
the phone is switched off they get put through to voicemail, for a one
minute call the charge will be UK>China 80p, China>voicemail (in UK) �1.30 =
�2.10 for a one minute call, if the person in China then switches the phone
on, see's they've got a voicemail and picks it up, they will be charged a
further �1.30/min for doing so. So once logged on your better off not
switching your phone off as to get a one minute call via voicemail costs a
total of �3.40! Remember calls both to and from the roaming phone are
charged to that phone!
HTH
--
Cheers, Steve.
If The Good Lord had meant for us to be fiscally prudent, He would not have
given us the platinum credit card...
Change colour to PC Plod's lights to reply.

The charges started the moment you are using foreign provider inside your
handset to make or receive audio calls [ not text apparently :)
Vodafone-wise.]

The meter will not run if you do not make or receive a call.
IF the meter runs even when no one using, maybe someone hijacked your GSM
signal.
[ it is very doable over in Asia ]
Better block it fast !

=bob=

"Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com...
> My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
>
> And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
>
> My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
>
> I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
>
> Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
>
> My bill only comes in end of the month. This is the time when an
> argument is inevitable.

On Jan 3, 2003, Iain Harrison <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
<ame81vckp4icglb31ucrg8fo2vm7neg2uj@4ax.com>:

> For more information, see http://www.mobileshop.org/roaming

Information well out of date re roaming in USA 

On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:17:23 +0000, Iain Harrison
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>Yes, if you have conditional diverts set, and the phone is switched
>off, when someone calls you, you are paying for the divert to China to
>discover that the phone is off, and another divert back to the UK to
>your answerphone.

I have never managed to achieve this feat, despite even phoning myself
to try to get it to happen. Can anyone point me at a posted bill
excerpt showing this in action ?

Maybe the networks I use (Voda & Orange) don't follow this charging
model.

Phil

Explain how GSM hijacking is possible in Asia.

Hijacking of a GSM connection is not possible without either [a] access to
the network operator's equipment or [b] the SIM

All GSM traffic is encrypted at the physical layer, the SRES and Kc are
derived from RAND and Ki, Ki is never transmitted across the link in
encrypted or unencrypted form.

"[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
news:3e1444a2$0$190$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> The charges started the moment you are using foreign provider inside your
> handset to make or receive audio calls [ not text apparently :)
> Vodafone-wise.]
>
> The meter will not run if you do not make or receive a call.
> IF the meter runs even when no one using, maybe someone hijacked your GSM
> signal.
> [ it is very doable over in Asia ]
> Better block it fast !
>
> =bob=
>
> "Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com...
> > My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> > services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
> >
> > And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> > The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
> >
> > My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> > they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
> >
> > I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> > that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> > pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
> >
> > Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
> >
> > My bill only comes in end of the month. This is the time when an
> > argument is inevitable.
>
>

Ill send that
"Jeremy Quirke" <jquirke@iNOprimSPAMus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e145a6d$0$3788@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> Explain how GSM hijacking is possible in Asia.
>
> Hijacking of a GSM connection is not possible without either [a] access to
> the network operator's equipment or [b] the SIM
>
> All GSM traffic is encrypted at the physical layer, the SRES and Kc are
> derived from RAND and Ki, Ki is never transmitted across the link in
> encrypted or unencrypted form.
>
> "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
> news:3e1444a2$0$190$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > The charges started the moment you are using foreign provider inside
your
> > handset to make or receive audio calls [ not text apparently :)
> > Vodafone-wise.]
> >
> > The meter will not run if you do not make or receive a call.
> > IF the meter runs even when no one using, maybe someone hijacked your
GSM
> > signal.
> > [ it is very doable over in Asia ]
> > Better block it fast !
> >
> > =bob=
> >
> > "Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com...
> > > My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> > > services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
> > >
> > > And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> > > The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
> > >
> > > My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> > > they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
> > >
> > > I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> > > that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> > > pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
> > >
> > > Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
> > >
> > > My bill only comes in end of the month. This is the time when an
> > > argument is inevitable.
> >
> >
>
>

condition [b] never happens to my friend , but explain how his GSM mobile
can be used in China while he is in HK for holiday ?
beats me .. ask the thief ..  don't ask me.

=bob=

"Jeremy Quirke" <jquirke@iNOprimSPAMus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e145a6d$0$3788@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> Explain how GSM hijacking is possible in Asia.
>
> Hijacking of a GSM connection is not possible without either [a] access to
> the network operator's equipment or [b] the SIM
>
> All GSM traffic is encrypted at the physical layer, the SRES and Kc are
> derived from RAND and Ki, Ki is never transmitted across the link in
> encrypted or unencrypted form.
>
> "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
> news:3e1444a2$0$190$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > The charges started the moment you are using foreign provider inside
your
> > handset to make or receive audio calls [ not text apparently :)
> > Vodafone-wise.]
> >
> > The meter will not run if you do not make or receive a call.
> > IF the meter runs even when no one using, maybe someone hijacked your
GSM
> > signal.
> > [ it is very doable over in Asia ]
> > Better block it fast !
> >
> > =bob=
> >
> > "Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com...
> > > My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> > > services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
> > >
> > > And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> > > The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
> > >
> > > My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> > > they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
> > >
> > > I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> > > that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> > > pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
> > >
> > > Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
> > >
> > > My bill only comes in end of the month. This is the time when an
> > > argument is inevitable.
> >
> >
>
>

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:01:53 +1100, "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia>
wrote:

>but explain how his GSM mobile
>can be used in China while he is in HK for holiday ?

Does Hong Kong being part of China have anything to do with it?

It was on 1999 , but still ... she does not know what number she dialed to
China.
as she roam the phone to receive call from business partner and staff back
home.

=bob=


"Adrian Smith" <usenet200301@hadrian.ws> wrote in message
news:3e1464a3.14097270@news.claranews.com...
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:01:53 +1100, "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia>
> wrote:
>
> >but explain how his GSM mobile
> >can be used in China while he is in HK for holiday ?
>
> Does Hong Kong being part of China have anything to do with it?
>

"[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
news:3e146c3c$0$188$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> It was on 1999 , but still ... she does not know what number she dialed to
> China. as she roam the phone to receive call from business partner and
> staff back home.

Isn't that entirely the point?

When you have a roaming charge it actually comes up as a call from the
subscriber's network to a foreign number - ie the number of your phone on
the host network. So it looks as though you've been calling china, but
actually that's the charge for the roaming call -inbound- to you.

All AIUI, of course :)

Geoff

err I was saying .. she does not know those destination numbers dialled from
her cell .. hence I think GSM jacking is possible ;)
+ she was there on holiday .. so all inbound call was listed as roaming call
fee from Carrier to her .. hence carrier numbers show .. .not destination ;)

=bob=


"Geoff Winkless" <geoff-at-farmline-dot-com@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:3e147132$0$233$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...
> "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
> news:3e146c3c$0$188$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > It was on 1999 , but still ... she does not know what number she dialed
to
> > China. as she roam the phone to receive call from business partner and
> > staff back home.
>
> Isn't that entirely the point?
>
> When you have a roaming charge it actually comes up as a call from the
> subscriber's network to a foreign number - ie the number of your phone on
> the host network. So it looks as though you've been calling china, but
> actually that's the charge for the roaming call -inbound- to you.
>
> All AIUI, of course :)
>
> Geoff
>
>

On 2/1/03 12:24, in article 35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com,
"Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote:

> My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
> 
> And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
> 
> My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?

Assuming that the phone was switched off using the power button when it was
logged onto a roaming network, then calls will not leave the home network
and so you will not be charged.

If the phone was switched off when out of coverage, or switched off by
removing the battery, then you will be charged for an incoming call and an
outgoing call back to voicemail (assuming you have a conditional or
auto-divert to voicemail active) until the time-out period is reached, which
is set by your home network.

> I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?

If the phone was not answered and the call was not diverted, then neither
called party has to pay.

> Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?

Certainly not.

Andrew Woodvine

I must agree with Andrew.  Due to my business I have a number of prepaid
SIMs roaming in Spain and never have been charged for an incoming call
diverted to voicemail while the phone was off.

In theory you would be charged if you have calls forwarded to your voice
mail if no answer, but not when the phone is off.

My experience when the phone is off out of coverage, is that calls are not
diverted to voicemail.  Rather you hear the usual recording from the
operator you are roaming on (for free).

Since operators are aware of this functioning of diverts when roaming, all
diverts are usually automatically turned off when they detect you are on a
foreign network, except when the phone is switched off.

--
Paco S�nchez
http://pacosanchez.com
mailto:psanchez%40pacosanchez%2ecom
ICQ 101879542

Check SIM+ at http://simplus.gsmeuropa.com
Up to 8 phone lines in a single GSM phone.

Visit our electronics shop at http://www.opentronics.com



"Andrew Woodvine" <andrew@woodvine.com> wrote in message
news:BA3A477F.AFBD%andrew@woodvine.com...
> On 2/1/03 12:24, in article
35718be1.0301020424.6ce8fe78@posting.google.com,
> "Alan" <thepest1998@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > My family's mobile (GSM) is registered to accept roaming and idd
> > services and they are away for 2 weeks in China and HK.
> >
> > And I have been monitoring the phone charges via my local auto check.
> > The charges keep on shooting up and its incredible.
> >
> > My question is when you are login to a foreign service provider, do
> > they actually charge you even when the phone is switched off?
>
> Assuming that the phone was switched off using the power button when it
was
> logged onto a roaming network, then calls will not leave the home network
> and so you will not be charged.
>
> If the phone was switched off when out of coverage, or switched off by
> removing the battery, then you will be charged for an incoming call and an
> outgoing call back to voicemail (assuming you have a conditional or
> auto-divert to voicemail active) until the time-out period is reached,
which
> is set by your home network.
>
> > I discovered that even when the phone is switch off and when I called
> > that number its ringing but of cause no one answered. Do we have to
> > pay for phone charges even though they did not pick up the phone?
>
> If the phone was not answered and the call was not diverted, then neither
> called party has to pay.
>
> > Any one? Or has our phone been intercepted?
>
> Certainly not.
>
> Andrew Woodvine
>

Well like I said, the thief would have had to have a contact at the network
operator side of things. A GSM connection cannot be hijacked over the 'air'
interface (MS-BSS) without knowledge of both the Ki and IMSI.

"[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
news:3e147785$0$171$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> err I was saying .. she does not know those destination numbers dialled
from
> her cell .. hence I think GSM jacking is possible ;)
> + she was there on holiday .. so all inbound call was listed as roaming
call
> fee from Carrier to her .. hence carrier numbers show .. .not destination
;)
>
> =bob=
>
>
> "Geoff Winkless" <geoff-at-farmline-dot-com@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:3e147132$0$233$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...
> > "[BnH]" <b18@iprimus.com.australia> wrote in message
> > news:3e146c3c$0$188$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > > It was on 1999 , but still ... she does not know what number she
dialed
> to
> > > China. as she roam the phone to receive call from business partner and
> > > staff back home.
> >
> > Isn't that entirely the point?
> >
> > When you have a roaming charge it actually comes up as a call from the
> > subscriber's network to a foreign number - ie the number of your phone
on
> > the host network. So it looks as though you've been calling china, but
> > actually that's the charge for the roaming call -inbound- to you.
> >
> > All AIUI, of course :)
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> >
>
>

On Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:59:27 +0000, Iain Harrison
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>"Lone Wolf" <flatulantdingo@deadspam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>On Jan 3, 2003, Iain Harrison <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
>><ame81vckp4icglb31ucrg8fo2vm7neg2uj@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> For more information, see http://www.mobileshop.org/roaming
>>
>>Information well out of date re roaming in USA 
>
>You're not the first person the say that, but nobody has given an
>update to explain how it is out of date.

The only section I would query is this:-

"In general, the whole American continent is dominated by AMPS, and
roaming is not really a possibility. If you need to stay in touch, you
may have to use a satellite phone."

I presume by "whole American continent" you mean North America
(including say Canada).  If so then I don't think the statement
"roaming is not really a possibility" is a fair one - at least since
1999 ish.  I have made over 20 visits since my first tri-band handset
in 1999 to most of the key cities and have found roaming works well.
I would certainly never contemplate the need for a satellite phone in
the USA.

On Jan 3, 2003, Iain Harrison <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
<ia0b1vgr6lpcrnbc1pv39a3gc8sco7f8qs@4ax.com>:

> You're not the first person the say that, but nobody has given an
> update to explain how it is out of date.

AT&T are rolling out a nationwide GSM 1900 service, and GSM 1900 is
available in major centres more and more frequently.

Of course if you have a tri band 'phone and your service provider has an
arrangement with a US service provider, you can roam on your own handset.

For instance in LA I can use either AT&T or Cingular, and I believe T Mobile
also have a GSM service, which piggy backs on top of Cingular Wireless.

One thing that seems to be a problem in the US is texting, which does not
seem to be fully implemented on all networks.

Finally I have read that some providers in the US are now rolling out GSM
850, just to confuse matters further.

Others may well have later updates or corrections to this.

On Jan 3, 2003, "Paco S�nchez" <nntp@pacosanchez.com> wrote in
<1041597109.435646@axilla.wwnet.net>:

> My experience when the phone is off out of coverage, is that calls are not
> diverted to voicemail.  Rather you hear the usual recording from the
> operator you are roaming on (for free).
>
> Since operators are aware of this functioning of diverts when roaming, all
> diverts are usually automatically turned off when they detect you are on a
> foreign network, except when the phone is switched off.

This is not correct.  It depends on your operator and your set up.

For instance if you have "Divert if Unavailable / Out of Range etc" turned
on and even if your are roaming, your calls will be diverted.

At least that is what happens with Telstra (Australia).

I thought this is a GSM standard?

I didn't say all operators, but usually, which means it is the most common
practice.  All I have tested do it.  Some even tell you so in their manuals.

--
Paco S�nchez
http://pacosanchez.com
mailto:psanchez%40pacosanchez%2ecom
ICQ 101879542

Visit our electronics shop at http://www.opentronics.com

Check SIM+ at http://simplus.gsmeuropa.com
Up to 8 phone lines in a single GSM phone.



"Lone Wolf" <flatulantdingo@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:NZgR9.15873$jM5.44089@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> On Jan 3, 2003, "Paco S�nchez" <nntp@pacosanchez.com> wrote in
> <1041597109.435646@axilla.wwnet.net>:
>
> > My experience when the phone is off out of coverage, is that calls are
not
> > diverted to voicemail.  Rather you hear the usual recording from the
> > operator you are roaming on (for free).
> >
> > Since operators are aware of this functioning of diverts when roaming,
all
> > diverts are usually automatically turned off when they detect you are on
a
> > foreign network, except when the phone is switched off.
>
> This is not correct.  It depends on your operator and your set up.
>
> For instance if you have "Divert if Unavailable / Out of Range etc" turned
> on and even if your are roaming, your calls will be diverted.
>
> At least that is what happens with Telstra (Australia).
>
> I thought this is a GSM standard?

Back to the original Question.

Breif run down of Roaming:

When you log on in China you are registered on the VLR (Visitor Location
Register) where your details are registered as an 'optus / vodaphone /
telstra' user if an agreement is made between your network and that country.
All calls made to you hit the Australian service centre and are redirected
to you in China.

This is why you are charged between Australia and China when people make
calls to you. If someone calls you within China, it is a national or local
call as they are registered on the national network, however if they call
you from England you receive the call from Australia.

ie:

UK > Australia > China.   Not  UK > China, as some people have mentioned.

Similar to Voicemail / Diverts.

1.UK -> 2.Australia -> 3.China (China VLR replies to Australian HLR (Home
Location Register) that is is N/A) -> 4.(HLR in Australia receives
message) -> 5.Person calling from UK hears Australian Voicemail Box ->
6.Voicmail sends a Message waiting indicator to China.

Therefore  you are charged between 2. -> 3. and 5. -> 6.  and if the message
waiting indicator can't get through it will keep trying and you will be
charged for all the transactions from Australia to China.

If the phone is switched off then the call ends in Australia and no charge
is made.

The problem is you can't really put up with a fight, most networks either
say "do you realise it is expensive to go roaming" or "do you agree to any
charges incurred by roaming" and everyone always says "yeah sure..."

- Dave

"Marc Cornelius" <cornelius@vercor.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cJNHCrdCcEG+EwzY@vercor.demon.co.uk...
>
> No - it is an international call. The person in China dials an
> Australian Mobile number and the call is routed to Australia and then
> back to China.

Very Wrong. The call is _charged_ as an international call, as the person in
China has dialled an Australian number. However the call routing is locally
looped in China when the Australian HLR (Home Location Register) replies
with a CCITT message to the Chinese exchange where the call originated
saying "the phone is in the Chinese VLR (Visitors Location Register)".

Although the switching signal path might have gone to Australia, the Voice
Circuit path is routed locally.

Breaking it down step by step:
1. Person in China dials Australian Mobile Number
2. Chinese Exchange contacts Chinese International Gateway
3. Chinese International Gateway contacts Australian International Gateway.
4. Australian Internationa Gateway contacts Australian HLR to locate the
exchange area in which the phone is located.
5. Normally: the HLR will respond with a local Australian VLR for the voice
circuit to be routed to. Note that up until this stage only switching
signals have transversed the networks. The voice circuit is only routed once
the location of the terminating mobile is found.
If the mobile is Internationally roaming, 1of 2 things can happen:
Option 1: The HLR responds saying "that phone is internationally roaming and
is in the Chinese VRL - ID: XYZ123" and the local Chinese network says
"Yippee, we don't need to tie up international routes to handle this call,
but we get the money for it anyway!" and they route the call locally.
Option 2: If (for example) the phone was roaming in another country, say
France, the Australian HLR would respond with the response above (only
saying it's in the French VLR....) and then would leave the circuit open to
allow the chinese network to decide whether it wanted the Australian network
to handle the routing to Fance, or if the Chinese had an agreement with the
French to directly route the call. Once the chinese network says what it'll
do, the routing is set up accordingly.

My last comment - in this thread earlier, people were talking about GSM
signal hijacking. This is not usually a problem in most countries as the GSM
signal is encrypted. But in China there is no such encryption. No-one knows
for sure but anecdotal reasons include theorys about the Chinese government
wanting to eavesdrop on calls and the Trade embargos with China preventing
them from purchasing the High-Encryption algorithms. I don't know so I won't
confirm one way or the other. But from the information available to me
(albeit a bit dated) there is no such encryption on any Chinese mobile phone
network.

Regards,
D.