🚀 go-pugleaf

I'd consider adding in-house laser or inkjet as an option. You probably stand out because of your high quality standards and that's what sets you apart. It's a tough call because you're going to have to make an investment and some of your time will be tied up with production issues in addition to your designing.

Don't forget, lasers do not hold up as well as lithographs. Your premium product is well worth the money if the couple wants to hold on to their wedding materials as heirlooms. Personally, I think lasers are tacky, especially as wedding invitations.

John, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that lasers are tacky, especially for wedding stationary which is why I have help off this long. I just don't want to keep losing every client once I give them a quote! I know the people I lose business to use the laser method and in turn can offer much lower costs. People aren't really aware that I am offering a much higher quality output and in most cases they don't care and are only concerned with their wallets!

If only everyone could see it through the eyes of a true designer. It's very frustrating.

I sympathize with you Lori. I haven't directly or personally lost jobs to someone less skilled working at home, but I know it happens and I know there are people out there. We are in a field where anyone who owns a copy of photoshop calls themself a 'designer' and it's really annoying...

The problem with bottom feeding is that there is always someone else who will do it for less. You will find some couples who have their brother do it for free, even though it will look like crap (to everyone except the creator and his sister).

Rather than lose your cachet as a quality shop, learn to sell a bit. Others here have given you the spiel: "Yeah, you can get it done cheaper, but I don't see you buying your dress at Walmart. Cheap invitations will fade away in a year or so ... mine will still be perfect when your 25th Anniversary party comes up."

Hey, that last bit might be a value-added sale. Tell the person that it is relatively cheap to add an extra 100 to printed invitations. Sell that as something for them to put away and use when their anniversary parties come up in the future (every bride assumes that her marriage will last forever, in spite of the odds).

Lori,

This is a tough call, emotionally, as well as from a business standpoint. I've been a designer for many years and sympathize. That said, bite your lip and offer both services. In this economy, a dollar earned either way is still a dollar more in your pocket.

Some people could never afford your services, no matter what. Others don't understand the difference, and just want the job done -- cheap.

Others will go for good design, printed by sheetfed litho on good, appropriate stock.

Others will want "raised lettering" as thermography.

And a select few will insist on nothing less than genuine engraving on the finest Cranes or Strathmore with matching lined envelopes.

And yes, laser (or inkjet) is indeed tacky, particularly for such important occasions as weddings, confirmations and bar mitzvahs. Save the laser and inkjet for those summer barbecues, baby showers, and third grade recitals.

Neil

I agree with Neil Lori, offer both. Try to convince them to go with the more expensive output and as Don suggested, sell it. But at least if you can offer both services it's a wider range of what you as a shop offers, and you'll still get the money from those cheapos.

Thanks for all the responses. You guys "get it." I cringe when I hear people, Oh, I did my own invitations for $1 each using powerpoint! Ugh.

Offering laser is the last thing I want to do, due to the quality and the amount of production work it means for me! Cutting bleeds, etc., no thanks!

If I want more work though, I may have to bite my lip like Neil suggests. Or, do I maintain cachet like Don says?? That is my dilemma.

By now you probably have a nice portfolio where it should be obvious your work speaks for itself. Next time someone says they printed a laser, just whip out a knife and scrape the image off a sampler or show them a faded print from six months ago or spill some water on an inkjet and show them the result. The look on their face should make the sell.

We've all run into clients who claim they've done it cheaper. Great. You need pain-in-the-#?! paying clients, not pain-in-the-#?! non-paying clients. The like doing crap work themselves, let 'em.

Lori, 

      Oh, I did my own invitations for $1 each using powerpoint!




The one comfort here is that such people would never be your customers. Or anyone elses'. 

      If I want more work though, I may have to bite my lip




Take your product to the markets that will buy from you. In today's economy, I think it would be wise to offer laser as well as offset. You'll have two price points. Two different sets of customers. If you can't sell one type of card, you should be able to sell the other.

Remember, in the end, we're commercial artists, hired to do the job. Don't take it to heart. Take the money and run to the bank. Very few of us can afford to narrowly specialize.

For your soul, try painting, improve your photography, rebuild Model A Fords, play an instrument -- whatever gives you inner satisfaction.

Neil

I get people who "design" their own wedding invites all the time. They also bring in their own stock from paper direct and other sources. So they have this ugly design on crappy thin card stock. The ultimate mash up. The other problem is that you can't run envelopes through a laser (at least I can't through mine) without the flaps sealing from the heat.

Don said it best. Take whatever comes in but part of owning a business is to sell the value of your invitations to your potential clients. I went out and purchased several invitation sets from Paper Direct. I show the clients how thin the paper is, how the edges are slightly serrated after separating the printed cards (most print 2 up for foldovers and 4 up for reply cards).

Another example on up selling. Client comes in with a trifold menu. Hates waiting 2 weeks or whatever it is for Vistaprint to deliver their brochures. They paid $275 + delivery (a huge profit center) for 1,000 brochures. I tell them my brochures are $375 for 1000. "Way overpriced" they say. I asked why are they here then. They tell me they have to change the prices and need new menus yesterday. I ask how many they have to trash. They said roughly half. I point out that their true price is 55� per menu for 500 menus they used. For an $100 I will only print the number of menus they need when they need them. Add $30 to update prices over life of printing and at a total of $305 they are paying 41� per menu for 1000 menus. Once they figure out how many times they've thrown out boxes of outdated "cheap" menus, they came back and gave me their business. Of course, they no longer had the original art so I made money recreating their menu from scratch. Another $200 in my pocket.

Richard, 

      I show the clients how thin the paper is, how the edges are slightly serrated
      after separating the printed cards (most print 2 up for foldovers and
      4 up for reply cards).




You walk into Staples and they have the same crap on the shelves. Some people don't get it and never will.

It's maybe one step up from the colorful stickers some kids (and adults) stick on their letters to Grandma or friends. For invitations, a lot of the off-the-shelf/DIY stuff is an insult to the occasion. Again, we're not talking about invitations to sleep overs, Sunday barbecues, or Super Bowl parties. We're talking about important and memorable landmarks in one's life.

But, one thing you you have demonstrated is that in a number of circumstances, you can win over a customer who perceives your shop as being "expensive". 50% spoilage included with a paid job? Incredible!

Neil

      50% spoilage included with a paid job? Incredible!




People aren't even aware how much money they throw away. I always sell the true price per item. If I'm a nickel or dime higher with no waste, most people can live with it. Not all but a sizable mumber.

Staples is getting real big into invitation end of the business.

I did notice that there color copy price is back up to 69� for "premium stock" which I think is hammermill laserprint. A nice stock but Neenah it is not.

Neil - So you've convinced me. Any recs on a good quality laser printer that isn't going to cost an arm and a leg? I see that question on here a lot but don't see any clear winners. I'd need it to print tabloid and handle thick stock.

I have run envelopes through a laser before without problems. A lot of people want metallic stock such as stardream or envelopements and that cannot be printed on an inkjet, it just smears off. Lasers have worked ok for me though.

"The other problem is that you can't run envelopes through a laser (at least 
I can't through mine) without the flaps sealing from the heat."

If you run the envelopes (presumably addressing them) through a laser most 
of the toner will also flake off in the mail and they'll be barely legible 
by the time they're delivered.

I address invitation envelopes in a cheap ink jet with great results (as 
long as they don't wet of course, though that's a problem with laser printed 
ones too).

Cyndee 

Lori, 

      I'd need it to print tabloid and handle thick stock.




Well, that limits your choices; certainly of any inexpensive printers. But the last time we used tabloid laser printers, we had HP 4050N machines, long discontinued.

Maybe someone else here has an idea. Or Google "tabloid laser printers".

Neil

The trick is to find one that runs cover stock. You may need to lose the words "inexpensive" for your search. But bear in mind that lasers, over the life of the printer, are far cheaper than an inkjet. I've had my laser for over a year and haven't changed the ink once. Coming up on 2000 impressions. With an inkjet, I was buying cartridges every month. It got out of hand so I bit the bullet and spent a couple hundred more and got the laser. I have a xerox. Can't remember the brand at the moment. No duplexing or cover on the one I have.

Tabloid Laser Printersx <http://www.google.com/search?q=color+laser+printer+11x17&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a>

Another point is that a decent laser printer will outlive an inkjet, and is better for general black-and-white printing. Over the years, we've heavily used our HP LaserJets and found them virtually indestructible. I'm not specifically recommending the brand, though, for your purposes.

Also be aware that laser printers are more limited in the kinds of paper that will successfully print on them, that is, properly bonding the toner. But, if successful, type is crisper than with a typical inkjet. And envelopes are an issue, often wrinkling, misfeeding, or not bonding properly. Toner cartridges seem to last forever, especially compared with inkjet cartridges.

On the other hand, for graphics and photos, lasers generally can't touch the quality of a good inkjet.

BTW, don't know how I could forget, but we had used a large Canon ImageRunner office-type tabloid printer in addition to the HP. It could collate and staple, and I believe, print duplex. Very reliable,and not cheap, but it opens up another avenue to explore...

Call and check out how well you can use one of the office-level tabloid printers from Canon and Xerox (perhaps other brands as well). You can generally lease them without having to put the money up front for an outright purchase, and get a service contract as well.

Neil

Another point is that a decent laser printer will outlive an inkjet, and is better for general black-and-white printing. Over the years, we've heavily used our HP LaserJets and found them virtually indestructible. I'm not specifically recommending the brand, though, for your purposes.

Also be aware that laser printers are more limited in the kinds of paper that will successfully print on them, that is, properly bonding the toner. But, if successful, type is crisper than with a typical inkjet. And envelopes are an issue, often wrinkling, misfeeding, or not bonding properly. Toner cartridges seem to last forever, especially compared with inkjet cartridges.

On the other hand, for graphics and photos, lasers generally can't touch the quality of a good inkjet.

BTW, don't know how I could forget, but we had used a large Canon ImageRunner office-type tabloid copier and printer in addition to the HP desktop laser. The Canon could collate and staple, and I believe, print duplex. Very reliable,and not cheap, but it opens up another avenue to explore...

Call and check out how well you can use one of the office-level tabloid copier/printers from Canon and Xerox (perhaps other brands as well). You can generally lease them without having to put the money up front for an outright purchase, and get a service contract as well.

Neil

I had the imagerunner and currently have Konica Minolta Biz Hub. You can get a used Imagerunner for under $5K. This is a copier, not a laser though.

Richard, 

      This is a copier, not a laser though




This is comparing "apples and oranges". A copier can use any technology: thermal, wax, inkjet, laser (xerographic/electrostatic process).

The Canon ImageRunner is a laser printing device that supports basic digital copying and the ability to add Mail Box features, network printing, scanning, and fax capabilities. Plus, you can add stapling, sorting, and hole-punching all within the original footprint of the device.

Neil

Almost all toner based copiers are called copiers. No one I know calls any toner based mass reproduction systen anything other than copiers or digital copiers.

Richard, 

      No one I know...




Even Canon calls these "multifunction" machines or devices (either copier based or printer based). And Xerox calls them "multifunction" printers or devices, or simply MFPs. And consumer-level multifunction machines, such as from HP and Epson are called "all-in-ones".

And if I'm using it as a network printer, I'd sooner call it a printer than a copier.

Neil