🚀 go-pugleaf

Your Special Friend wrote:
> 
> http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> 
> Exporting U.S. jobs
> 
> Former textile worker, Jimmy, of North Carolina, laments, "We were
> middle class." Now he is among the 6,500 employees of the Pillowtex
> towel factory laid off in August 2003. Just two years ago, Jimmy and
> his wife bought a modest home, believing their combined wages would
> support them comfortably. Today, like many of their former co-workers,
> Jimmy and his wife both work part-time and have sold many of their
> goods to try and get by. Thousands of other former Pillowtex workers
> are facing foreclosures, eviction notices and car repos, making
> difficult choices about which utilities to turn off.
> 
> The Pillowtex closing was an event akin to a natural disaster. But it
> wasn't an act of nature that shut down the plant. Rather, the firm was
> overwhelmed by a flood of imports from China, resulting in the largest
> one-day layoff in the history of North Carolina. The Pillowtex closing
> dramatically portrays the devastation being wrought throughout
> America's manufacturing power by Communist China.
> 
> Manufacturing businesses, from electronics to fishing lures, are
> closing their doors in deference to Chinese imports. Three members of
> the president's cabinet on a cross-country jaunt to promote the Bush
> economic plan have encountered an earful from angry businesspeople. A
> spokesman of the Textile Manufacturers points out, "as textiles from
> China, India, Pakistan and Vietnam flood the American market, people
> are losing jobs faster than you can count. China dominates the
> market."
> 
> Ironically, China came in and purchased looms and other machinery from
> Pillowtex, crating and shipping them to China.
> 
> As a CEO of a closed furniture factory stated, "trying to stay in
> business, we asked our employees to be more productive, more
> efficient, even take pay cuts. The employees stepped up and done all
> we asked, but we could not compete with the imports. I feel like we
> let these folks down. It's unlike anything I've seen in my years in
> the industry. Plants have closed, people sent home; it's hard to say,
> three, four, five years what industry will look like in America. I
> think that at some point, this country has to think about what's best
> for us. We run a risk in any industry that we let leave this country."
> 
> The effects of job losses go well beyond the individual who lost the
> job. Each time a factory shuts down, it has a ripple effect on the
> economy and the wages of other workers in America. In other words, we
> accelerate our "race to the bottom."
> 
> The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> 
> A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> 
Zalek,

How would youpropose we remedy THIS situation?

> 
> As I listened to President Bush in his State of the Union speech say,
> "the economy is strong and growing stronger, and jobs are on the
> rise," I could not help but agree with Joe Leiberman, who the next day
> said, "This president is living in a dream world."
> 

I have felt he has lived in a dream world for years. He is not the
sharpest knife in the drawer. And they say that those with lower IQs
tend to think things are better than they really are. Ooooops! Did I say
that out loud?

-- 
#----------------------------------------------------------#
#                "Don't fear the penguin!"                 #
#----------------------------------------------------------#
# Registered Linux user: #309247     http://counter.li.org #
#----------------------------------------------------------#

In ba.internet Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote:

> How would youpropose we remedy THIS situation?

Disallow any tax deductions for the costs of going off-shore.
Forbid state/federal/local governments from contracting with companies
   whose workers are all off-shore.
Stop the various Federal agencies from giving seminars and advice on how
   to export American jobs overseas.
Forbid Federal employees from giving advice on how to avoid paying 
   overtime by cutting wages.
Find ways to tax US companies who re-incorporate as a PO Box in the 
   Carribbean.  Don't give government contracts to companies who do 
   so.

These are just a few of the way to create disincentives.  I'm sure
clever folks can come up with more.

Simeon

-- 
The address in the header *is* actually replyable. 
If replying, use mail or post here.  Please, not both

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention 

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:08:53 -0600, "Jeff Davis" <luzer15@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Nope,  the devastation is being wrought by the American
>consumer purchasing Chinese made products.
>Gotta go to Wal-Mart to purchase a noose.

we seem to value cheapness over our own future.

cheap disposable junk, and lots of it.   we're burying ourselves in it
we'd rather buy something that lasts a few uses and breaks than quality
whatevvers that cost a few times more and would last a lifetime with
reasonable care..

we spend $billions on cheap disposable chinese-made junk, then the Chinese
turn around and lend our "conservative" government the same $billions so
we can line the pockets of the defense industry and go blow up some
desert....

Have you been involved in 'electrocuting' ? (sonic)


snevel+usenet@sonic.net wrote:

> In ba.internet Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
> > How would youpropose we remedy THIS situation?
>
> Disallow any tax deductions for the costs of going off-shore.
> Forbid state/federal/local governments from contracting with companies
>    whose workers are all off-shore.
> Stop the various Federal agencies from giving seminars and advice on how
>    to export American jobs overseas.
> Forbid Federal employees from giving advice on how to avoid paying
>    overtime by cutting wages.
> Find ways to tax US companies who re-incorporate as a PO Box in the
>    Carribbean.  Don't give government contracts to companies who do
>    so.
>
> These are just a few of the way to create disincentives.  I'm sure
> clever folks can come up with more.
>
> Simeon
>
> --
> The address in the header *is* actually replyable.
> If replying, use mail or post here.  Please, not both
>
> If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention

<snevel+usenet@sonic.net> wrote:

> In ba.internet Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>> How would youpropose we remedy THIS situation?

>Disallow any tax deductions for the costs of going off-shore.
>Forbid state/federal/local governments from contracting with companies
>   whose workers are all off-shore.

Now this blows.  In my opinion, to solve the California state
fiscal crisis, we should move most governmental operations --
say, the DMV -- from Sacramento to say Juarez.  Or Bangalore.  
Goddess knows we'd get better performance, on top of lower costs.

KATO,

Steve

Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message news:<401BFDB7.6DD299FF@aracnet.com>...
> Your Special Friend wrote:
> > 
> > http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> > 
> > Exporting U.S. jobs
 
> > The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> > security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> > 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> > critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> > our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> > Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> > America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> > 
> > A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> > (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> > jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> > plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> > Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> > manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> > 
I see the exporting of high tech and particularly defense work troublesome.
For these reasons:
    1. Not just loss of current jobs in the US but future jobs and skills
        will also be lost. Right now you here the gripe that americans 
       should posses better technical skills, well that will only get 
       worse if there is no demand for it. 
    2. Taxes are taken without choice and spent not on an american worker
       but one in another country.
    3. Reliance on another nation for our defense structure is way too risky.

Maxwelton wrote:
> 
> Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message news:<401BFDB7.6DD299FF@aracnet.com>...
> > Your Special Friend wrote:
> > >
> > > http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> > >
> > > Exporting U.S. jobs
> 
> > > The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> > > security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> > > 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> > > critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> > > our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> > > Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> > > America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> > >
> > > A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> > > (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> > > jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> > > plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> > > Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> > > manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> > >
> I see the exporting of high tech and particularly defense work troublesome.
> For these reasons:
>     1. Not just loss of current jobs in the US but future jobs and skills
>         will also be lost. Right now you here the gripe that americans
>        should posses better technical skills, well that will only get
>        worse if there is no demand for it.
>     2. Taxes are taken without choice and spent not on an american worker
>        but one in another country.
>     3. Reliance on another nation for our defense structure is way too risky.

And what REALLY frightens me about your final point is that our
administration (be it Senate, COngress, resident-in-cheif) are aiding
and abetting this. THis is more of a threat to our national security
than a fucking airplane being flown into another high-rise building!

Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to control
an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece of code
being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on our own
troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security vulernability that
leaves a system open for cyber-attack?

The possibilities are endless, IMO.

Joe
-- 
#----------------------------------------------------------#
#                   Penguinix Consulting                   #
#----------------------------------------------------------#
#            Software development, QA and testing.         #
#                Linux support and training.               #
#                "Don't fear the penguin!"                 #
#----------------------------------------------------------#
# Registered Linux user: #309247     http://counter.li.org #
#----------------------------------------------------------#

Your Special Friend wrote:
> 
> http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> 
> Exporting U.S. jobs
> 
> Former textile worker, Jimmy, of North Carolina, laments, "We were
> middle class." Now he is among the 6,500 employees of the Pillowtex
> towel factory laid off in August 2003. Just two years ago, Jimmy and
> his wife bought a modest home, believing their combined wages would
> support them comfortably. Today, like many of their former co-workers,
> Jimmy and his wife both work part-time and have sold many of their
> goods to try and get by. Thousands of other former Pillowtex workers
> are facing foreclosures, eviction notices and car repos, making
> difficult choices about which utilities to turn off.
> 
> The Pillowtex closing was an event akin to a natural disaster. But it
> wasn't an act of nature that shut down the plant. Rather, the firm was
> overwhelmed by a flood of imports from China, resulting in the largest
> one-day layoff in the history of North Carolina. The Pillowtex closing
> dramatically portrays the devastation being wrought throughout
> America's manufacturing power by Communist China.
> 
> Manufacturing businesses, from electronics to fishing lures, are
> closing their doors in deference to Chinese imports. Three members of
> the president's cabinet on a cross-country jaunt to promote the Bush
> economic plan have encountered an earful from angry businesspeople. A
> spokesman of the Textile Manufacturers points out, "as textiles from
> China, India, Pakistan and Vietnam flood the American market, people
> are losing jobs faster than you can count. China dominates the
> market."
> 
> Ironically, China came in and purchased looms and other machinery from
> Pillowtex, crating and shipping them to China.
> 
> As a CEO of a closed furniture factory stated, "trying to stay in
> business, we asked our employees to be more productive, more
> efficient, even take pay cuts. The employees stepped up and done all
> we asked, but we could not compete with the imports. I feel like we
> let these folks down. It's unlike anything I've seen in my years in
> the industry. Plants have closed, people sent home; it's hard to say,
> three, four, five years what industry will look like in America. I
> think that at some point, this country has to think about what's best
> for us. We run a risk in any industry that we let leave this country."
> 
> The effects of job losses go well beyond the individual who lost the
> job. Each time a factory shuts down, it has a ripple effect on the
> economy and the wages of other workers in America. In other words, we
> accelerate our "race to the bottom."
> 
> The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> 
> A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> 
> Our nation's manufacturing power has been the gateway to the middle
> class for untold millions of American's, resulting in unprecedented
> national prosperity. Asked to comment on America's grim economic
> prospects, an observer declared, "I see an America where the middle
> class declines to near-subsistence living. It's here already".
> 
> As I listened to President Bush in his State of the Union speech say,
> "the economy is strong and growing stronger, and jobs are on the
> rise," I could not help but agree with Joe Leiberman, who the next day
> said, "This president is living in a dream world."
> 
> Anton Epp, Goessel


America is on a suicide run. Without industry as its backbone the
world's great political experiment in the mixings of people living in
one nation will die a rapid death. Just how stupid have the people
become who run America? We've become dependent on some of our enemies to
remain strong? Even retards know better.

Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message news:<401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com>...
> Maxwelton wrote:
> > 
> > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message news:<401BFDB7.6DD299FF@aracnet.com>...
> > > Your Special Friend wrote:
> > > >
> > > > http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> > > >
> > > > Exporting U.S. jobs
>  
> > > > The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> > > > security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> > > > 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> > > > critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> > > > our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> > > > Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> > > > America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> > > >
> > > > A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> > > > (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> > > > jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> > > > plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> > > > Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> > > > manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> > > >
> > I see the exporting of high tech and particularly defense work troublesome.
> > For these reasons:
> >     1. Not just loss of current jobs in the US but future jobs and skills
> >         will also be lost. Right now you here the gripe that americans
> >        should posses better technical skills, well that will only get
> >        worse if there is no demand for it.
> >     2. Taxes are taken without choice and spent not on an american worker
> >        but one in another country.
> >     3. Reliance on another nation for our defense structure is way too risky.
> 
> And what REALLY frightens me about your final point is that our
> administration (be it Senate, COngress, resident-in-cheif) are aiding
> and abetting this. THis is more of a threat to our national security
> than a fucking airplane being flown into another high-rise building!

Yes it makes you wonder who is calling the shots and what do they 
really understand. 
> 
> Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to control
> an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece of code
> being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on our own
> troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security vulernability that
> leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> 
> The possibilities are endless, IMO.

All of the above and much more. I don't know of a single piece of 
software developed that doesn't contain hidden functions etc. that
only the producers are aware exists, customers have no idea. Most do 
it to help their customers when they have problems, but certainly it
could work a number of ways against customers.

"Your Special Friend" <ybf@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:1214fb08.0401311057.525b866b@posting.google.com...
> http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
>
> Exporting U.S. jobs
>
> Former textile worker, Jimmy, of North Carolina, laments, "We were
> middle class." Now he is among the 6,500 employees of the Pillowtex
> towel factory laid off in August 2003. Just two years ago, Jimmy and
> his wife bought a modest home, believing their combined wages would
> support them comfortably. Today, like many of their former co-workers,
> Jimmy and his wife both work part-time and have sold many of their
> goods to try and get by. Thousands of other former Pillowtex workers
> are facing foreclosures, eviction notices and car repos, making
> difficult choices about which utilities to turn off.
>
> The Pillowtex closing was an event akin to a natural disaster. But it
> wasn't an act of nature that shut down the plant. Rather, the firm was
> overwhelmed by a flood of imports from China, resulting in the largest
> one-day layoff in the history of North Carolina. The Pillowtex closing
> dramatically portrays the devastation being wrought throughout
> America's manufacturing power by Communist China.

Nope,  the devastation is being wrought by the American
consumer purchasing Chinese made products.
Gotta go to Wal-Mart to purchase a noose.



>
> Manufacturing businesses, from electronics to fishing lures, are
> closing their doors in deference to Chinese imports. Three members of
> the president's cabinet on a cross-country jaunt to promote the Bush
> economic plan have encountered an earful from angry businesspeople. A
> spokesman of the Textile Manufacturers points out, "as textiles from
> China, India, Pakistan and Vietnam flood the American market, people
> are losing jobs faster than you can count. China dominates the
> market."
>
> Ironically, China came in and purchased looms and other machinery from
> Pillowtex, crating and shipping them to China.
>
> As a CEO of a closed furniture factory stated, "trying to stay in
> business, we asked our employees to be more productive, more
> efficient, even take pay cuts. The employees stepped up and done all
> we asked, but we could not compete with the imports. I feel like we
> let these folks down. It's unlike anything I've seen in my years in
> the industry. Plants have closed, people sent home; it's hard to say,
> three, four, five years what industry will look like in America. I
> think that at some point, this country has to think about what's best
> for us. We run a risk in any industry that we let leave this country."
>
> The effects of job losses go well beyond the individual who lost the
> job. Each time a factory shuts down, it has a ripple effect on the
> economy and the wages of other workers in America. In other words, we
> accelerate our "race to the bottom."
>
> The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
>
> A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
> (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> manufacture in the South Korea plant.
>
> Our nation's manufacturing power has been the gateway to the middle
> class for untold millions of American's, resulting in unprecedented
> national prosperity. Asked to comment on America's grim economic
> prospects, an observer declared, "I see an America where the middle
> class declines to near-subsistence living. It's here already".
>
> As I listened to President Bush in his State of the Union speech say,
> "the economy is strong and growing stronger, and jobs are on the
> rise," I could not help but agree with Joe Leiberman, who the next day
> said, "This president is living in a dream world."
>
> Anton Epp, Goessel

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:24:11 -0500, RL
<CHESSRL2002@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>Your Special Friend wrote:
>> 
>> http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
>> 
>> Exporting U.S. jobs
>> 
>> Former textile worker, Jimmy, of North Carolina, laments, "We were
>> middle class." Now he is among the 6,500 employees of the Pillowtex
>> towel factory laid off in August 2003. Just two years ago, Jimmy and
>> his wife bought a modest home, believing their combined wages would
>> support them comfortably. Today, like many of their former co-workers,
>> Jimmy and his wife both work part-time and have sold many of their
>> goods to try and get by. Thousands of other former Pillowtex workers
>> are facing foreclosures, eviction notices and car repos, making
>> difficult choices about which utilities to turn off.
>> 
>> The Pillowtex closing was an event akin to a natural disaster. But it
>> wasn't an act of nature that shut down the plant. Rather, the firm was
>> overwhelmed by a flood of imports from China, resulting in the largest
>> one-day layoff in the history of North Carolina. The Pillowtex closing
>> dramatically portrays the devastation being wrought throughout
>> America's manufacturing power by Communist China.
>> 
>> Manufacturing businesses, from electronics to fishing lures, are
>> closing their doors in deference to Chinese imports. Three members of
>> the president's cabinet on a cross-country jaunt to promote the Bush
>> economic plan have encountered an earful from angry businesspeople. A
>> spokesman of the Textile Manufacturers points out, "as textiles from
>> China, India, Pakistan and Vietnam flood the American market, people
>> are losing jobs faster than you can count. China dominates the
>> market."
>> 
>> Ironically, China came in and purchased looms and other machinery from
>> Pillowtex, crating and shipping them to China.
>> 
>> As a CEO of a closed furniture factory stated, "trying to stay in
>> business, we asked our employees to be more productive, more
>> efficient, even take pay cuts. The employees stepped up and done all
>> we asked, but we could not compete with the imports. I feel like we
>> let these folks down. It's unlike anything I've seen in my years in
>> the industry. Plants have closed, people sent home; it's hard to say,
>> three, four, five years what industry will look like in America. I
>> think that at some point, this country has to think about what's best
>> for us. We run a risk in any industry that we let leave this country."
>> 
>> The effects of job losses go well beyond the individual who lost the
>> job. Each time a factory shuts down, it has a ripple effect on the
>> economy and the wages of other workers in America. In other words, we
>> accelerate our "race to the bottom."
>> 
>> The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
>> security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
>> 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
>> critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
>> our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
>> Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
>> America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
>> 
>> A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South Korea"
>> (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
>> jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
>> plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
>> Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
>> manufacture in the South Korea plant.
>> 
>> Our nation's manufacturing power has been the gateway to the middle
>> class for untold millions of American's, resulting in unprecedented
>> national prosperity. Asked to comment on America's grim economic
>> prospects, an observer declared, "I see an America where the middle
>> class declines to near-subsistence living. It's here already".
>> 
>> As I listened to President Bush in his State of the Union speech say,
>> "the economy is strong and growing stronger, and jobs are on the
>> rise," I could not help but agree with Joe Leiberman, who the next day
>> said, "This president is living in a dream world."
>> 
>> Anton Epp, Goessel
>
>
>America is on a suicide run. Without industry as its backbone the
>world's great political experiment in the mixings of people living in
>one nation will die a rapid death. Just how stupid have the people
>become who run America? We've become dependent on some of our enemies to
>remain strong? Even retards know better.

I don't think that people that run America became stupid -
they are smart and want to became richer. It voters that
became stupid. It voters that voted politicians to govern
them. And look what will happen this year - does not matter
who will win - outsourcing will continue and  health
insurance will go up.

Zalek

"Joe Cipale" <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com...
> Maxwelton wrote:
> >
> > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:<401BFDB7.6DD299FF@aracnet.com>...
> > > Your Special Friend wrote:
> > > >
> > > > http://thekansan.com/stories/013004/vie_0130040039.shtml
> > > >
> > > > Exporting U.S. jobs
> >
> > > > The erosion of the U.S. industrial base has "enormous national
> > > > security implications," reports National Defense Magazine (August
> > > > 2003). The United States is so dependent on foreign countries for
> > > > critical components and systems that we may have lost our control of
> > > > our supply. We are now dependent on countries such as China, India,
> > > > Russia, France and Germany for critical weapons technology. For
> > > > America to be dependent on these nations is risky at best.
> > > >
> > > > A very glaring local example is "Boeing to create jobs in South
Korea"
> > > > (Kansan, April 2002). Boeing has a contract to make 40 F-I5 fighter
> > > > jets, the first-line fighter of the U.S. Air Force, and will build a
> > > > plant in South Korea, employing 30,000 workers to manufacture them.
> > > > Boeing also states that any future orders of F-1 5's will see
> > > > manufacture in the South Korea plant.
> > > >
> > I see the exporting of high tech and particularly defense work
troublesome.
> > For these reasons:
> >     1. Not just loss of current jobs in the US but future jobs and
skills
> >         will also be lost. Right now you here the gripe that americans
> >        should posses better technical skills, well that will only get
> >        worse if there is no demand for it.
> >     2. Taxes are taken without choice and spent not on an american
worker
> >        but one in another country.
> >     3. Reliance on another nation for our defense structure is way too
risky.
>
> And what REALLY frightens me about your final point is that our
> administration (be it Senate, COngress, resident-in-cheif) are aiding
> and abetting this. THis is more of a threat to our national security
> than a fucking airplane being flown into another high-rise building!
>
> Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to control
> an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece of code
> being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on our own
> troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security vulernability that
> leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
>
> The possibilities are endless, IMO.
>


i would first like to explore this possibility: can we avoid "friendly fire"
and chopper accidents that kill more of our troops than enemies do?
can we spare our youth from joining army just because they can't find jobs
elsewhere?


> Joe
> --
> #----------------------------------------------------------#
> #                   Penguinix Consulting                   #
> #----------------------------------------------------------#
> #            Software development, QA and testing.         #
> #                Linux support and training.               #
> #                "Don't fear the penguin!"                 #
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Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com: 

> Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> 
> The possibilities are endless, IMO.

The White House e-mail system was offshored.

Flavius Vespasianus <nl@nl.com> wrote in message news:<asATb.9856$uM2.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
> news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com: 
> 
> > Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> > control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> > of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> > our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> > vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> > 
> > The possibilities are endless, IMO.
> 
> The White House e-mail system was offshored.

So whats the problem??  Anything and Everything can be offshored to
India and things will be just fine!!

"DontOutsourceMe" <dontoutsourcemyjob@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6f37046c.0402021822.27225c74@posting.google.com...
> Flavius Vespasianus <nl@nl.com> wrote in message
news:<asATb.9856$uM2.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
> > news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com:
> >
> > > Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> > > control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> > > of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> > > our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> > > vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> > >
> > > The possibilities are endless, IMO.
> >
> > The White House e-mail system was offshored.

I hope you aren't serious! If so can you provide proof?


> So whats the problem??  Anything and Everything can be offshored to
> India and things will be just fine!!

I hope you aren't serious!
Technical issues aside everything would not be "fine".
First US taxpayer money should not be used for offshoring of  government IT
systems *ever*.
If you can't see the security issue here then I have some beachfront
property in Oklahoma I like to talk to you about.

"Old Enough to Know Better" <SpamSucks@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:<jMiUb.135023$f97.29635@fe3.columbus.rr.com>...
> "DontOutsourceMe" <dontoutsourcemyjob@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6f37046c.0402021822.27225c74@posting.google.com...
> > Flavius Vespasianus <nl@nl.com> wrote in message
>  news:<asATb.9856$uM2.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
> > > news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com:
> > >
> > > > Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> > > > control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> > > > of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> > > > our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> > > > vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> > > >
> > > > The possibilities are endless, IMO.
> > >
> > > The White House e-mail system was offshored.
> 
> I hope you aren't serious! If so can you provide proof?
> 
> 
> > So whats the problem??  Anything and Everything can be offshored to
> > India and things will be just fine!!
> 
> I hope you aren't serious!
> Technical issues aside everything would not be "fine".
> First US taxpayer money should not be used for offshoring of  government IT
> systems *ever*.
> If you can't see the security issue here then I have some beachfront
> property in Oklahoma I like to talk to you about.

During the boom period of 1997-2001, there was a tremendous shortage
of IT professionals to execute govt. contracts. Lots of Indians were
hired esp in the DC area for govt. contractual work. When the economy
tanked, the BCIS came up with a security problem so that no
non-citizens would be employed. the workers were laid off, and
american replacements were trained. I understand your security and
economic concerns. But shouldn't this be disclosed upfront to the
job-seeker? BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?

regards
-kamal

In article <181e352f.0402042306.7387eb6c@posting.google.com>, kamalp@acm.org (Kamal 
R. Prasad) writes...
> "Old Enough to Know Better" <SpamSucks@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:<jMiUb.135023$f97.29635@fe3.columbus.rr.com>...
> > "DontOutsourceMe" <dontoutsourcemyjob@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:6f37046c.0402021822.27225c74@posting.google.com...
> > > Flavius Vespasianus <nl@nl.com> wrote in message
> >  news:<asATb.9856$uM2.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > > > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
> > > > news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com:
> > > >
> > > > > Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> > > > > control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> > > > > of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> > > > > our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> > > > > vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> > > > >
> > > > > The possibilities are endless, IMO.
> > > >
> > > > The White House e-mail system was offshored.
> > 
> > I hope you aren't serious! If so can you provide proof?
> > 
> > 
> > > So whats the problem??  Anything and Everything can be offshored to
> > > India and things will be just fine!!
> > 
> > I hope you aren't serious!
> > Technical issues aside everything would not be "fine".
> > First US taxpayer money should not be used for offshoring of  government IT
> > systems *ever*.
> > If you can't see the security issue here then I have some beachfront
> > property in Oklahoma I like to talk to you about.
> 
> During the boom period of 1997-2001, there was a tremendous shortage
> of IT professionals to execute govt. contracts. Lots of Indians were
> hired esp in the DC area for govt. contractual work. When the economy
> tanked, the BCIS came up with a security problem so that no
> non-citizens would be employed. the workers were laid off, and
> american replacements were trained. I understand your security and
> economic concerns. But shouldn't this be disclosed upfront to the
> job-seeker? BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
> threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?
> 
> regards
> -kamal


I don't think it's the workers - per se - that are the security 
threat.  There are various problems with such things as oversight, 
geography, management, and differences in legal situations in 
different countries that can make it easier for security breaches 
to happen.

If a US citizen is accused of espionage or treason, I would think 
it would be a lot easier to prosecute them than the citizen of 
another country if that country decides not to be cooperative -- ie 
refuses to extradite the suspect, or constrains the prosecution
in some other way.  For example in Europe they often refuse to 
extradite an individual if they face the death penalty, since it 
is an outlawed form of punishment in the EU.



-- 
*   Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which       *
*   differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are   *
*   even incapable of forming such opinions.             -- Albert Einstein   *
*                                                                             *
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces:  pjkusenet64 @  ekahuna27 . com   *
*  Simple answers are for simple minds.  Try a new way of looking at things.  *

Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
> BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
> threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?

Good point, but security enforcers can't watch everyone.  They
have to play the percentages.  Given what we know now, what is
the relative probability that the next mass terror event will be
committed by US citizens or non-citizens?

-- 
John Richards

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:36:47 GMT, "John Richards"
<supportdesk@netzero.net> wrote:

>Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
>> BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
>> threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?
>
>Good point, but security enforcers can't watch everyone.  They
>have to play the percentages.  Given what we know now, what is
>the relative probability that the next mass terror event will be
>committed by US citizens or non-citizens?

lets see.

OKC Fed building - domestic
WTC plane crashing - foreign
Anthrax scare - apparently domestic, unsolved

US: 2, Arabs: 1.

next?

John R Pierce wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:36:47 GMT, "John Richards"
> <supportdesk@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>> Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
>>> BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
>>> threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?
>>
>> Good point, but security enforcers can't watch everyone.  They
>> have to play the percentages.  Given what we know now, what is
>> the relative probability that the next mass terror event will be
>> committed by US citizens or non-citizens?
>
> lets see.
>
> OKC Fed building - domestic
> WTC plane crashing - foreign
> Anthrax scare - apparently domestic, unsolved
>
> US: 2, Arabs: 1.
>
> next?

Look again:
OKC Fed building - 168 dead
Anthrax scare - no dead
9/11 event - 2958 dead

So, 2958 dead versus 168: kinda lopsided, huh?
So who represents the most probable terror threat to the US, citizens
or non-citizens?  I'm glad you're not in charge of Homeland Security.

-- 
John Richards

Philip J. Koenig <See_email_@ddress_below.This_one_is.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a8bb5b48ab91b9598a3f6@corp.supernews.com>...
> In article <181e352f.0402042306.7387eb6c@posting.google.com>, kamalp@acm.org (Kamal 
> R. Prasad) writes...
> > "Old Enough to Know Better" <SpamSucks@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:<jMiUb.135023$f97.29635@fe3.columbus.rr.com>...
> > > "DontOutsourceMe" <dontoutsourcemyjob@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:6f37046c.0402021822.27225c74@posting.google.com...
> > > > Flavius Vespasianus <nl@nl.com> wrote in message
>  news:<asATb.9856$uM2.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > > > > Joe Cipale <joec@aracnet.com> wrote in
> > > > > news:401D492E.40A861E3@aracnet.com:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can you imagine some foreing coder developing a piece of code to
> > > > > > control an air defense or missile launcher? Can you imagine said piece
> > > > > > of code being compromised? What would the ramifications be? Firing on
> > > > > > our own troops? Disabling the launch codes? a virus/security
> > > > > > vulernability that leaves a system open for cyber-attack?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The possibilities are endless, IMO.
> > > > >
> > > > > The White House e-mail system was offshored.
> > > 
> > > I hope you aren't serious! If so can you provide proof?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > So whats the problem??  Anything and Everything can be offshored to
> > > > India and things will be just fine!!
> > > 
> > > I hope you aren't serious!
> > > Technical issues aside everything would not be "fine".
> > > First US taxpayer money should not be used for offshoring of  government IT
> > > systems *ever*.
> > > If you can't see the security issue here then I have some beachfront
> > > property in Oklahoma I like to talk to you about.
> > 
> > During the boom period of 1997-2001, there was a tremendous shortage
> > of IT professionals to execute govt. contracts. Lots of Indians were
> > hired esp in the DC area for govt. contractual work. When the economy
> > tanked, the BCIS came up with a security problem so that no
> > non-citizens would be employed. the workers were laid off, and
> > american replacements were trained. I understand your security and
> > economic concerns. But shouldn't this be disclosed upfront to the
> > job-seeker? BTW -are non-US citizens guaranteed to pose a security
> > threat? Was Tmothy McVeigh not a US citizen?
> > 
> > regards
> > -kamal
> 
> 
> I don't think it's the workers - per se - that are the security 
> threat.  There are various problems with such things as oversight, 
> geography, management, and differences in legal situations in 
> different countries that can make it easier for security breaches 
> to happen.
> 

Security breaches as in access to classified information, is a small
set of jobs which are/were already off-limtis to individuals without a
security clearance, for which you need to be a citizen. The BCIS made
a generic rule of thumb that anything to do with the govt meant that
foreign citizens were a security hazard. Its more to do with
hypothesizing without concrete evidence than a genuine security threat
that such jobs didn't require a security clearance till the BCIS
decided they do.

> If a US citizen is accused of espionage or treason, I would think 
> it would be a lot easier to prosecute them than the citizen of 
> another country if that country decides not to be cooperative -- ie 
> refuses to extradite the suspect, or constrains the prosecution
> in some other way.  For example in Europe they often refuse to 
> extradite an individual if they face the death penalty, since it 
> is an outlawed form of punishment in the EU.

Yes -that is true. But once a person leaves India and is working in
the US, he is automatically govedrned by US Federal & State law. The
immunity if any, will apply once the person returns to India. In
general, if the country is a well-established democratic country, you
need prime-facia evidence to extadite, and that probably gives
them[neo-cons] good reason not to let foreigners do sensitive jobs:-).

regards
-kamal