🚀 go-pugleaf

From my limited experience with both, JBuilder might be the
better for a Java newbie. I think it can do a little more handholding.
You can grow into JBuilder. From my experience with Eclipse, it's
mainly for the professional, Java expert who has some decent experience.

I'm sure you could use both and be very happy, but to get started,
you might want to look closely at JBuilder.

But since Eclipse is free, you might just fall in love with it =)

BTW, I really liked jEdit (www.jedit.org). It's not really an "IDE",
per se, it's more of a glorified text editor, but it's great for
crankin' out serious Java code and it has a really great macro
environment, IMHO.

-c

"Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39mX8.71483$1D2.29419397@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I've been programming stuff via GUI and other software packages like
> UltraDev, InterDev by MS and wanted to try out Vis. Studio's VJ's package
> but never got to it.
>
> The company is getting into java/moving and and I need to pick up Java
> ASAP.
>
> I read quite a bit and I am looking into JBuilder and Eclipse.  I worked
> with prev. people in the past and they highly SPEAK of Borland in general.
>
> Not just of their JBuilder but their Delphi and their C++.
>
> I need to pick up java quick and I needed something that is easy to use
> maybe lots of tools and wizards; if possible.  I also used MS InterDev
> and liked the built-in tools that works with IIS and others.
>
> I haven't tried JBuilder no Eclipse yet.  I am d/l Eclipse right now
> and wonder how this will be like.
>
> Eventually I will continue studying the language and pick up other
> necessary programs that will be required by school like VB intro
> and Advance, Java and few others.
>
> I think by using Java I won't be limited to just the M$ systems
> and I can move to WebLogic; other Databases like Oracle or
> mySQL (in my case).
>
> Price would not be an issue.

if u like a VS-like, fast and low memory-footprint IDE -  use JCreator 2.5

"Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39mX8.71483$1D2.29419397@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I've been programming stuff via GUI and other software packages like
> UltraDev, InterDev by MS and wanted to try out Vis. Studio's VJ's package
> but never got to it.

I am a huge Eclipse fan, so that would be my recommendation.  If you do
evaluate Eclipse, the eclipse.tools newsgroup can be an very helpful
resource. Of course, one of the major advantages of Eclipse is it's free.

I assume you develop on Windows, so you have a lot of options.  Many people
like IDEA (http://www.intellij.com/idea/) for commerical products, although
often times for things you also get in Eclipse (easy refactoring and such).

Also note that IBM sells a product which extends Eclipse called WSAD
(Websphere Studio Application Developer).  Although 4.X is a little
outdated, WSAD 5.0, which has all the features of Eclipse 2.0 plus a lot of
extra extensions for EJB, JSP, XML, and GUI development, should be released
soon.

If you give more details on exactly the type of development you will be
doing, you will probably get better responses:  i.e web development
(Servlets/JSPs), distributed apps (EJBs), GUI (thin client or fat client),
etc.

-Andrew

"Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39mX8.71483$1D2.29419397@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I've been programming stuff via GUI and other software packages like
> UltraDev, InterDev by MS and wanted to try out Vis. Studio's VJ's package
> but never got to it.
>
> The company is getting into java/moving and and I need to pick up Java
> ASAP.
>
> I read quite a bit and I am looking into JBuilder and Eclipse.  I worked
> with prev. people in the past and they highly SPEAK of Borland in general.
>
> Not just of their JBuilder but their Delphi and their C++.
>
> I need to pick up java quick and I needed something that is easy to use
> maybe lots of tools and wizards; if possible.  I also used MS InterDev
> and liked the built-in tools that works with IIS and others.
>
> I haven't tried JBuilder no Eclipse yet.  I am d/l Eclipse right now
> and wonder how this will be like.
>
> Eventually I will continue studying the language and pick up other
> necessary programs that will be required by school like VB intro
> and Advance, Java and few others.
>
> I think by using Java I won't be limited to just the M$ systems
> and I can move to WebLogic; other Databases like Oracle or
> mySQL (in my case).
>
> Price would not be an issue.

"Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39mX8.71483$1D2.29419397@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I read quite a bit and I am looking into JBuilder and Eclipse.

My view is that Eclipse will be the standard Java IDE. I've put
down a few thoughts here:

http://www.itwriting.com/borlandfutures.php

However, JBuilder has a GUI Swing builder and Eclipse does
not (yet), so if you are doing rich clients that might tip you
JBuilder's way.

Tim

Today's bestselling Java books:
http://www.itwriting.co.uk/servlets/BookList?keyword=java&keymode=books

On 11-Jul-2002, "Chad Myers" <cmyers@N0.S.P4.M.austin.rr.com> wrote:

> From my limited experience with both, JBuilder might be the
> better for a Java newbie. I think it can do a little more handholding.
> You can grow into JBuilder. From my experience with Eclipse, it's
> mainly for the professional, Java expert who has some decent experience.
>

I just downloaded the Trial version of it.  Jbuilder 7 Enterprise.
I like it alot and it reminds me a little of MS InterDev sort of.

I also tried Eclipse after installed the required addons to work
and it was more of a editor that required Java knowledge already.

I must say that I got so much shi* to learn for work in Java
and very soon I will be forced to learn VB and VB Advance
for college.

> I'm sure you could use both and be very happy, but to get started,
> you might want to look closely at JBuilder.
>
> But since Eclipse is free, you might just fall in love with it =)
>
> BTW, I really liked jEdit (www.jedit.org). It's not really an "IDE",
> per se, it's more of a glorified text editor, but it's great for
> crankin' out serious Java code and it has a really great macro
> environment, IMHO.
>

I hear people use emacs with plugins for the java modules and such
but for me.  When I have to learn so much and do so many things
besides programming I need something simpler to get the task done.

There is no longer the days when you knew C++ or VB that you were
set.  Today's work-force I noticed you have to know Java, VB, CORBA
WebLogic, Db2, Oracle, SQL Server and such for the 50K a year; or
maybe 60K.

On 11-Jul-2002, "Christoph Seidel" <chris666.seidel@gmx.de> wrote:

> if u like a VS-like, fast and low memory-footprint IDE -  use JCreator 2.5
>
> "Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:39mX8.71483$1D2.29419397@twister.socal.rr.com...
> >
> > I've been programming stuff via GUI and other software packages like
> > UltraDev, InterDev by MS and wanted to try out Vis. Studio's VJ's
> > package
> > but never got to it.

I checked it out, looks pretty simple and cool.  I didn't pay much attention
when I checked the site out awhile back till now.

I might end up trying out the JBuilder, due to the fact that I've seen books
on Bordland Delphi and few others, and I'm sure they got JBuilder as well.

Like I mention to prev. post.  I need to focus on one lang., learn it and
while using it daily move on to the next one....

I know java will be around for awhile.. I would hate to learn it and than
something else comes out and again.

VB and VB.NET and such similar but new things... I know I have to learn
them as well for school...

On 11-Jul-2002, "Andrew McCullough" <mccull1@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> I am a huge Eclipse fan, so that would be my recommendation.  If you do
> evaluate Eclipse, the eclipse.tools newsgroup can be an very helpful
> resource. Of course, one of the major advantages of Eclipse is it's free.
>
> I assume you develop on Windows, so you have a lot of options.  Many
> people
> like IDEA (http://www.intellij.com/idea/) for commerical products,
> although
> often times for things you also get in Eclipse (easy refactoring and
> such).
>
> Also note that IBM sells a product which extends Eclipse called WSAD
> (Websphere Studio Application Developer).  Although 4.X is a little
> outdated, WSAD 5.0, which has all the features of Eclipse 2.0 plus a lot
> of
> extra extensions for EJB, JSP, XML, and GUI development, should be
> released
> soon.
>
> If you give more details on exactly the type of development you will be
> doing, you will probably get better responses:  i.e web development
> (Servlets/JSPs), distributed apps (EJBs), GUI (thin client or fat client),
> etc.
>
> -Andrew

Thanks for the reply.  Actually the company is running WebLogic server
and it's all UNIX stuff.  They have NT workstations to code and work for
daily / email stuff but all back-end is UNIX.

So they do use XML, JSP and other stuff... they have 3 other people
working on hard-core java stuff and I would be assisting...

I book marked the site.. didn't know about it.. thanks.

"Angel" <transnation2k@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IHvX8.90728$xy.31073401@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> On 11-Jul-2002, "Chad Myers" <cmyers@N0.S.P4.M.austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > From my limited experience with both, JBuilder might be the
> > better for a Java newbie. I think it can do a little more handholding.
> > You can grow into JBuilder. From my experience with Eclipse, it's
> > mainly for the professional, Java expert who has some decent experience.
> >
>
> I just downloaded the Trial version of it.  Jbuilder 7 Enterprise.
> I like it alot and it reminds me a little of MS InterDev sort of.
>
> I also tried Eclipse after installed the required addons to work
> and it was more of a editor that required Java knowledge already.
>
> I must say that I got so much shi* to learn for work in Java
> and very soon I will be forced to learn VB and VB Advance
> for college.

VB Advance? VB.NET?

>
> > I'm sure you could use both and be very happy, but to get started,
> > you might want to look closely at JBuilder.
> >
> > But since Eclipse is free, you might just fall in love with it =)
> >
> > BTW, I really liked jEdit (www.jedit.org). It's not really an "IDE",
> > per se, it's more of a glorified text editor, but it's great for
> > crankin' out serious Java code and it has a really great macro
> > environment, IMHO.
> >
>
> I hear people use emacs with plugins for the java modules and such
> but for me.  When I have to learn so much and do so many things
> besides programming I need something simpler to get the task done.

Well, for me, jEdit was like Emacs without all the head-keyboard
banging =)  Emacs for Java is not that great. Every time I've worked
with someone using Emacs for Java, the code they write is always
messed up. They can never get their indenting right and it hoses
it for everyone else. I've seen them using it too and it never
seems to get the syntax highlighting correctly.

And don't use Emacs for JSP. Christ. It had to reload the syntax
parser each time you move the cursor between HTML and scriptlets.
How annoying! I guess Emacs doesn't support having multiple
syntax highlighters for one document.

In the end, jEdit supports most or all of the features of Emacs
you could want for Java and it doesn't suck!

IMHO, sometimes IDEs can get in your way or even dumb you down
(because you don't know how some of the basic stuff works).

My advice would be to get an editor like jEdit which is
simple (and very-Windows-like in that you can pick up on
what's going on without having to read the docs much) and
allows you to learn Java without having to learn the IDE too.

-c

>
> There is no longer the days when you knew C++ or VB that you were
> set.  Today's work-force I noticed you have to know Java, VB, CORBA
> WebLogic, Db2, Oracle, SQL Server and such for the 50K a year; or
> maybe 60K.

"Galen Boyer" <galenboyer@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:uy9cgw7ya.fsf@hotpop.com...
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, cmyers@N0.S.P4.M.austin.rr.com wrote:
> >
> > Well, for me, jEdit was like Emacs without all the head-keyboard
> > banging =)  Emacs for Java is not that great. Every time I've worked
> > with someone using Emacs for Java, the code they write is always
> > messed up.
>
> Emacs has fantastic indentation and formatting capabilities.

If you can configure it correctly, which rarely seems to be the case.

I have known many-an-Emacs user and I've rarely seen code spat from
their editor that looks good in anything other than Emacs.

The seemingly random combination of tabs and spaces makes it
incomprehensible in any other editor.

<SNIP: more discussion on Emacs>

I guess the main problem is not emacs, but the people using it.

At any rate, Ed is the one, true, and only editor!

http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html

Ed man! !man Ed

"Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked
 to ed. Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which
 1) Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces
 the user's disk quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!"

"When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES
 of worthless help screens and cursor positioning code!
 I just want an EDitor!! Not a "viitor".  Not a "emacsitor".
 Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED! ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!"

-c

Chad Myers wrote:

> If you can configure it correctly, which rarely seems to be the case.
>
> I have known many-an-Emacs user and I've rarely seen code spat from
> their editor that looks good in anything other than Emacs.
>
> The seemingly random combination of tabs and spaces makes it
> incomprehensible in any other editor.

In practice, I've seen more problem from DevStudio users. The worst is
probably when it happily mixes different line-ends like CR, CR-LF, LF,
CR-CR-LF...

But the wrong-tabs thing is another problem. One guy sets 2, one sets 8,
one sets 3... In Emacs, however, it's easy to fix:

  (setq indent-tabs-mode nil)

There. No more tabs in source-code. No more problems


--
Jon A. Cruz

What's this? It's almost as though the fates were tempting me to...
Bad fates. Baaad... Naughty fates...

"Jon A. Cruz" <joncruz@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:3D32F842.EC524346@geocities.com...
> Chad Myers wrote:
>
> > If you can configure it correctly, which rarely seems to be the case.
> >
> > I have known many-an-Emacs user and I've rarely seen code spat from
> > their editor that looks good in anything other than Emacs.
> >
> > The seemingly random combination of tabs and spaces makes it
> > incomprehensible in any other editor.
>
> In practice, I've seen more problem from DevStudio users. The worst is
> probably when it happily mixes different line-ends like CR, CR-LF, LF,
> CR-CR-LF...
>
> But the wrong-tabs thing is another problem. One guy sets 2, one sets 8,
> one sets 3... In Emacs, however, it's easy to fix:
>
>   (setq indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
> There. No more tabs in source-code. No more problems

The problem with Tabs is if you have Tabs to spaces.

Tabs are preferable because the viewer can configure them to
his liking, whereas with spaces, you're stuck.

Tabs should be treated as tabs. If they aren't, then the editor
is broken.

-c