Thread View: comp.os.os2.programmer
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Started by Brian Sturgill
Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:28
Can someone at IBM please explain why developers should develop for OS/2?
Author: Brian Sturgill
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:28
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:28
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I've debated for sometime with myself whether I should write this message, but as yesterday I finally discover that the >$700 development tool set we bought from IBM -- DOES NOT HAVE A PROFILER, I decided I really did need to write this. (Yes, I know they now sell the tools for $295, but then that's about what they're worth -- and we paid >$700 -- guess that's what we get for being anxious to develop for OS/2.) I ask that somebody from IBM please post this on you internal bulletin board. And I really do expect a response, preferably from someone fairly high up, and preferably addressed to developers in general, not just me. This posting reflects my personal opinion, and not necessarily that of the University of Utah, or the spin-off company associated with the research group I work for. The following is a description of my adventures in trying to develop a product for OS/2 2.0, and more recently for Windows NT. Back in late January, I started following closely comp.os.os2*. It seemed like the "impossible" was about to happen. OS/2, which always looked good on paper, was about to have a good implementation. Further all that 286 nonsense had been dropped. I had only just gotten back into the PC world a few months before as I saw in Windows 3.X that finally PC's were beginning to get "usable" (read capability near the level of UNIX), and seeing as they already had neat stuff of their own (good word processors, cheap but still real database support, great games, full-featured GUI's [X is not full-featured]), that the capabilities of Windows combined with the power of the ever cheaper 386/486's meant the world was about to change, and that UNIX may have missed its chance. Our research group is mainly UNIX based, and so I got quite a bit of fun-style "abuse", in doing this... and when I announced that OS/2 2.0 was "almost as good as UNIX, better in some ways" the response was somewhat more than skeptical. Still things looked good enough that we decided to postpone some work I had scheduled for Windows 3.X, and push on to OS/2 2.0, as that was clearly a better platform for our product. So far so good. Finally a non-toy operating system in the PC world. In early February I started trying to contact IBM. For whatever reason the people in Boca were not answering the phone. A month later I was finally able to start development, using EMX and a copy of the LA release a local IBM guy gave me -- it was his personal copy. You see I committed the great sin of not having an SE, and thus never seemed to be able to land the real thing. Finally at the end of March I had gotten through to the EEP program, and for a not particularly cheap fee was able to get docs, the 6.304 beta, and the beta WorkSet Tools. In the interim, closely following USENET and Compuserve postings, I did as I was told and purchased OS/2 1.3 in order to get a free upgrade to 2.0 as this would be the "fastest way" to get a copy of OS/2 2.0 GA. We spend about $1,000 on beta stuff to this point. Well fortunately I won a copy at the local roll-out event, or it might have been another two months before I got one... more on this later. April 6th or so I sent in my "Proof of License" to get my 1.3 upgraded to 2.0. Around this same time I found a company "800 software" that not only knew what OS/2 2.0 was, but even had good enough contacts with IBM to figure out how to place an order for the WorkSet (for some odd reason the beta was very restricted and the license expired only 30 days after the GA release.) The workset cost >$700, and did not include new copies of the programming docs. I decided to live with the beta copies of the docs, we had spent enough (I had to upgrade disk and memory to run OS/2, not a biggee, but an expense none the less.) God, I hate waiting so long for these shipments! Hasn't IBM heard of 2-day air? Why won't the take purchase orders? Also around this time I finally got the DAP to answer the phone, they sent me an application, but as I'm kind of in the middle of things by then I never got around to filling out the forms. Besides I couldn't get anybody to tell me how much it costs! I still have the forms, somebody want to convince me why I should fill them out? In late April it all came together, the work was well under way, OS/2 2.0 GA, while definitely released too soon, was quite usable. Rumor had it that it was selling well and the advertising would start any day now, I was happy because in June or July there would be a CSD that would fix everything, etc, etc. A free copy of OS/2 2.0 came in, apparently the beta kit entitled you to one. The price of the WorkSet went down to $295... oh well, sometimes you lose. In May was when I first started having my doubts. I finally had enough stuff that I needed TCP/IP access for my PC, 800-Software helped me find the TCP/IP, and I anxiously awaited it. I waited and waited and waited, several weeks later it came in and did not work... no problem -- the net said there was a CSD so I called the OS/2 tech support line. They didn't know what TCP/IP was -- after much fussing around (and many hours lost) I finally got in touch with the proper people and (after explaining to them how the OS/2 2.0 install can be aborted for maintenance [bad training... it's a shame there were eager to learn about OS/2 2.0]), they promptly sent me the CSD, but I would not be able to use NFS. During this process, I was harassed a couple of times because I had a clone with an AT bus, but I said to myself, it will change, IBM is big, it takes a while to get the word out that clones are not persona non-grata anymore, the training will eventually catch up, etc. Time goes on, I still don't have my 1.3 upgrade, I consider calling, but in my experience that always leads to a bad day(s) and I've got better things to do. I had assumed that with the beta tools, that they were slow because of debug code... Wrong... this compiler's a dog. In June... finally TCP/IP 1.2.1 -- I really need NFS!!! I hastily send in my "proofs of license" and expect to WAIT. Well I did wait, but not that long a week or two and it came -- Yes! things are finally getting better at IBM. Oh, but wait they left out my NFS! Well I'll call them... hmmm.... no number on the invoice... check the original letter -- no number there either Yikes!!!! I call the local office TCP/IP? what's that? Who's my SE? I DON'T HAVE NO STINKING SE!!!! I yell loud enough somebody gives me the number of the IBM Customer Satisfaction Number... great this should work. I call, tell them my problem (also complain about lack of 2-day air shipment, and also lack of taking a purchase order). Yes sir, we'll get back to you on this by tomorrow afternoon... a week goes by... Sigh... well there's some nice guys from IBM on USENET... Finally I get some help.. John Gunther answers my letter. If IBM gives awards for service above and beyond this guy deserves one. Not only did he Air Express a copy of NFS to me, but he got the Order Fulfillment Center to cough-up the official copy. Still I'm greatly disturbed at IBM, they've had enough time to get things straightened out... is there a Customer Satisfaction Center for the Customer Satisfaction Center I quip to J. Gunther via e-mail? Also in June... the projects mostly there... I turn on the optimizer... Gak!!! it screws up loop expression-extraction optimization. I loose a week trying to get around the problems... decide I'll just have to live without optimization... I don't call IBM!!! -- I'd lose another week. Late June: I put a posting in the OS/2 developers forum on CompuServe asking about how to get documentation on writing an installable file system for OS/2 2.0. I want to write a system that uses a serial line to remotely access files, and want it well integrated. Also a friend of mine has developed a new filesystem technology and wants to explore putting it into OS/2 2.0. I still haven't got a response. Early July.... I decide at the last minute to attend the Windows NT Developer Conference -- it should be a good platform for our product too, if/when Microsoft delivers, it should be as good as OS/2, maybe they'll even clean up some of the grundge that's accumulated in the API's. July 5th -- Arrive in San Francisco... go to the registration... wow I've never seen so many nerds in one room... am I at home here or what? :-) I break out the OS/2 pin I got at the local roll-out and stick it through my name badge. Can't have MS think they've got it all!! July 6th -- The NT Dev Conf begins. Wow did I ever misjudge NT... it's clearly superior to OS/2 2.0, and it really exists, they're giving me a copy. Wow, I'm using on a system that's running NT... God... I only get it to crash once! This thing's as stable as OS/2 LA (LA not GA), though the DOS and 16 bit windows support is still weak... but then they aren't even trying to come out before December. My head slumps to the monitor screen... I remove the OS/2 pin from my name badge. July 7th -- Dave Cutler speaks first... gives good detail about NT's design -- wow I didn't know MS could design that solid... amazing.. at mid-day I decide UNIX is going to lose too. I call my wife and have her cancel that copy of OS/2 2.0 ObjectVision we were about to buy, we'll clearly be running NT at home... and the TCP/IP and file/printer sharing comes for free. (I have two systems at home, both running OS/2 2.0 and TCP/IP that I paid for out of my own pocket... sigh.. I guess I just have to take the loss). July 8th -- I _buy_ a Microsoft tee shirt... In general the prospect of Microsoft ruling the world makes me nervous but damn it, this product looks too good too pass up. And Microsoft is treating developers (even small ones like me) like kings. While the conference was $795, it was well worth the money... I get a copy of NT, several extra CD-ROM with stuff. They sign me up for a developer support program automatically where I get CD-ROMS of helpful stuff occasionally. The conference is extremely well planned... Microsoft was very open... listening to what people had to say. Giving out net addresses of employees. Good detail on the design of NT. They're being very careful to say what's there now... what comes in September, what is future plans... How can I find fault with this? They were thoughtful enough to _AIR_FREIGHT_ me the 30 pounds of extra documents so I didn't have to carry them through the airport. The NT CD has a complete development environment -- C AND C++. I'll get updates of both docs and CD's up until the commercial release, when I'll get a copy of all the commercial stuff, but the C/C++ compiler... what a deal!!! And my friends and colleagues can get copies too for only $69/$399 depending on whether or not the want hard copies of the docs. July 9th -- Arrive home, check mail at work... I've got a letter from IBM containing the "proof of license" from the 1.3 package saying that I forgot to check which diskette size I wanted! Three full months after I send it in. Well -- at least the didn't lose it! :-) (I still don't have my copy of GA from the 1.3 upgrade.) My product has now entered beta, and some of my testers were noticing some real slowness problems. No problem.. I'll run the offending program through the profiler... wonder what it's called... WHAT! NO PROFILER!!! Surely you can see my point... were it not for the fact I'm already in beta I would have to very seriously consider switching to doing a version for NT only... How many other developers are facing the same situation... plenty I'm sure. It's not that OS/2 2.0 is bad, it's that IBM bureaucracy sucks! What I as a developer want from IBM: IBM to start providing information on OS/2 in a timely open manner. Questions on Compuserve should always be answered, and in a timely manner. Generalized sales figures should be released, users and developers should know where things stand. If they are not released, then IBM shouldn't complain if people assume the worst. IBM should have provided a good, working, tested development environment with C and C++ at at a reasonable price, from day one... WITH ALL THE PROGRAMMING DOCS (at least on-line), and the hard copies of docs AT COST. It simply can't be in IBM's interest to try to make money off of documents for developers, it only leads to people making due with as little as possible. I want a PROFILER, and I want it two weeks ago! I want a working optimizer two months ago. RESPONSIVE customer/developer support. IBM to start shipping (possibly for a small extra fee) by 2-day air. IBM to accept purchase orders. Super-VGA (and others) drivers... it doesn't matter that they have to be written by the card manufactures... IBM should have provided proper encouragement IN ADVANCE! The NT pre-beta is shipping with more drivers than what comes with OS/2 2.0 GA. I am very tired of 640x480 16. IBM to start promoting OS/2... PS/2 television commercial and magazine advertising is not OS/2 advertising. I have never owned a PS/2, few people I know do (systems that will be obsolete in 3 years don't have to be built like presidential bomb shelters), and I probably will never own a PS/2... that doesn't mean I don't like OS/2. Emphasizing PS/2s over OS/2 will simply kill both. IBM to either give me an SE, or quit asking me who he/she is! IBM to get that "June" CSD out the door -- working and complete. IBM to somehow get tutorial documentation for 2.0 published. Where are the third party books? I swear it's easier to find out about NT that it is OS/2, and NT isn't even a product yet. Does IBM not have an equivalent of MS-PRESS? IBM to present their plans openly. In this month's Computer Shopper there is an article saying that IBM has said that they are deemphasizing OS/2 for Pink and that full OS/2 - Pink integration will occur later... perhaps in 1995. If this is true, and I've been mislead about the positioning of OS/2 I might develop for the Apple-side of Pink... but IBM can count me out. I can tell you (with large grains of salt being necessary of course) where Microsoft will be for the next 2 years. I have no idea where OS/2 will be. I simultaneously see IBM saying that OS/2 will be portable and have symmetric multiprocessing by November... yet another part saying as of two months ago it was not decided if OS/2 3.0 will be based on NT or Mach (now it's Mach I'm told). It is impossible for any company that does not know which such OS they're using as a base in May, to have a delivered product in November. Sincerely, Brian Sturgill (801) 581-5591 brian@cs.utah.edu (Internet address, my preferred contact point) CompuServe: 70363,1373 (personal) CompuServe: 76300,3115 (U of U) (Spin off company account setup still in progress)
Re: Can someone at IBM please explain why developers should develop for OS/2?
Author: dave
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:22
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:22
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In <1992Jul24.182822.24148@hellgate.utah.edu> Brian Sturgill writes:
> I had assumed that with the beta tools, that they were slow because of debug
> code... Wrong... this compiler's a dog.
I can't comment on your comments about support, ordering, or NFS, but I
can comment on compiler stuff. The problem with the compiler is not that
it's a dog, the problem is that it's a pig: it likes to have lots and
lots of memory available. We're fixing that, though. The first CSD
features a performance improvement of around 10%, and the next CSD will
have significant improvements in working-set size, which will lead to
better swapper behaviour. Some of our preliminary tests show compile-
time improvements of around 25% over the first CSD on small machines.
We'll let you know when this is available. In the mean time, you'll see
big improvements if you jack your machine up to 16M of RAM. I know that
this is a poor way to fix the compiler's memory allocation problems, but
it *will* give you fast relief.
> Also in June... the projects mostly there... I turn on the optimizer...
> Gak!!! it screws up loop expression-extraction optimization.
> I loose a week trying to get around the problems... decide I'll just have
> to live without optimization... I don't call IBM!!! -- I'd lose another week.
How do you expect us to fix bugs if you don't tell us what they are?
Build a preprocessed version of your program with the failing code (ie,
compile with -P), and send the resulting .I file to cset2@vnet.ibm.com
along with a covering note telling us where to look for the problem and
we'll open up an APAR and get this fixed in an upcoming CSD. And btw,
this goes for anyone else with a C Set/2 question, kudo, or complaint...
cset2@vnet.ibm.com is your 24-hour a day hotline to the C Set/2
developers, workframe@vnet.ibm.com for Workframe/2.
dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Mooney dmm@vnet.ibm.com
C Set/2 Development, IBM Canada Lab, 844 Don Mills Rd, Toronto, Ontario
"If you've got a blacklist, I want to be on it"
Re: Can someone at IBM please explain why developers should develop for OS/2?
Author: David Shepherd
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:43
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:43
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In article <19920727.074908.103@almaden.ibm.com>, dmm@vnet.ibm.com (dave) writes:
>we'll open up an APAR and get this fixed in an upcoming CSD. And btw,
>this goes for anyone else with a C Set/2 question, kudo, or complaint...
>cset2@vnet.ibm.com is your 24-hour a day hotline to the C Set/2
>developers, workframe@vnet.ibm.com for Workframe/2.
are there other email addresses for problems/bugs in other bits
of OS/2 ... if so can we know so we can help. (e.g. i'd feel
much happier if i felt someone knew of the fact that the 10x6 and
12x5 font sizes in OS/2 windows are broke on my set up and that,
assuming its a bug, something's being done to mend it)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
david shepherd: des@inmos.co.uk or des@inmos.com tel: 0454-616616 x 625
inmos ltd, 1000 aztec west, almondsbury, bristol, bs12 4sq
"i speak latin to god, spanish to men, french to women
and german to my horse." - charles v of spain
Can someone at IBM please explain why developers should develop for OS/2?
Author: Tim Francis
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:02
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:02
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In article <1992Jul24.182822.24148@hellgate.utah.edu>,
brian%jensen.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:
>
> <Long post removed for brevity>
Brian, you make several good points, and I sympathize with the trouble
you've been having. I have posted your item internally, but have no idea
what (or even if) the response will be.
Let me address a couple of items:
- You found a bug in the optimizer, but didn't report it.
We here in C Set (and WorkFrame) development pride ourselves on
quick response to customer concerns, especially when they uncover
a bug. Compiler bugs are worked immediately, and if necessary we will
fed-ex a fix out to you. There is a compiler CSD available already
(came out last week), so your problem may already be fixed; failing
that we'll get some details from you, and start work on it immediately.
(I'll be contacting you off-line).
- Your desire for C++ and a profiler.
Please understand that a "new, open IBM" does imply that we should lay
_all_ our plans on the table - this is a competitive market. You are
asking me for specific details about a future, unannounced version of
our product, and I just can't comment in that sort of detail.
Trust me: * Your concerns (and wishes) are being listened to.
* C Set/2 is a fully supported compiler, still undergoing
development and enhancments.
* _I_ believe in making as much information as possible
available to you, as soon as possible. The decision to
develop or not develop, announce or not announce, any given
product, or component of that product, is very carefully
thought out. As soon as I _can_, I _will_ tell you.
- You say that we should have made available, from day 1, a development
environment "WITH ALL THE PROGRAMMING DOCS (at least on-line), and
the hard copies of docs AT COST."
Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but the programming docs are
provided (on-line) with the toolkit (part of the WorkSet). Look in
your toolkit folder, under "Toolkit information". -tim
Re: Can someone at IBM please explain why developers should develop for OS/2?
Author: Benson I. Margulies
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:55
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:55
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> >How do you expect us to fix bugs if you don't tell us what they are? >Build a preprocessed version of your program with the failing code (ie, >compile with -P), and send the resulting .I file to cset2@vnet.ibm.com >along with a covering note telling us where to look for the problem and >we'll open up an APAR and get this fixed in an upcoming CSD. And btw, >this goes for anyone else with a C Set/2 question, kudo, or complaint... >cset2@vnet.ibm.com is your 24-hour a day hotline to the C Set/2 >developers, workframe@vnet.ibm.com for Workframe/2. > >dave > This is the first I've heard of the ability to get to you folks directly. I have been trying to submit my bug reports through the normal channels, and its a major challenge. First, 50% of the people at the 1-800 number haven't heard of C/SET 2. I say I need support for "C/SET 2 for OS/2 2.0" and they send me to the regular OS/2 support people. Then, I get to talk to someone who's job is to make me jump over a hurdle. Yesterday, I called in. Sez I, "I have a code generator bug. I have a test case. Where do I email it." "First I need you to send in an explanation of the problem via fax. Then we can talk about your test case." Meanwhile, it takes about a day to get a callback, even with priority 1. I have an outstanding C/SET 2 or LINK386 bug (I can't tell which). When I reported it, it took a week just to get enough calls through to get the test case submitted. Even then, the person claimed that the only electronic transmission available was IBM internal electronic mail. Luckily, my SE gets internet mail and could forward it. It has now been nearly a month, and I have yet to hear from the "analyst." I've had a cornucopia of entertaining misbehaviors from IPMD, but I haven't bothered to report them, since they don't come with repeatable test cases. When I finally get to talk to the people like yourself and Ian Amiline, I find them to be very helpful. But getting to you folks requires fighting a very hard struggle. Its not worth it if the problem isn't terminal, and so a lot of bugs go unreported. -- Benson I. Margulies
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