🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <a9ndds$lh2$1@norfair.nerim.net>, crenard@meditnet.com says...

>Since I don't possess the OS cdrom I looked for a NS3.3 Developer but it
>seems really expensive (150 USD ? gasp !!).

I can't help you with your current problem, but there is a long shot you can 
try. If your NeXT hasn't been registered with Apple, you can get their last 
version of NS from them.

Don't know if send things to France, but I got mine by airmail.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:26:47 GMT, Nearl J Toothenbecker
<nj_toothenbecker@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <a9ndds$lh2$1@norfair.nerim.net>, crenard@meditnet.com says...
>
>>Since I don't possess the OS cdrom I looked for a NS3.3 Developer but it
>>seems really expensive (150 USD ? gasp !!).
>
>I can't help you with your current problem, but there is a long shot you can 
>try. If your NeXT hasn't been registered with Apple, you can get their last 
>version of NS from them.
>
>Don't know if send things to France, but I got mine by airmail.


Very interesting.............. I have the same problem.......I asked
to Apple Italy but they did'nt know anything........" NeXtstep ?? what
is NextStep ?? " was their answer !

So how is possible to find somethings ??

Thank in advance & best Regards


Binotti Paolo
yoghithebear@inwind.it

Well it seems that Apple does not really want anymore with those "Olds"
stuffs.

I could talk to some Apple guys (on the last Linux Expo) regarding their
support and that was not really great:

 - First, they did not know NextStep (I had to actually tell the guy that it
was the OS of the NeXT, brought back to Apple by Job, before he would
see(somehow) what I was talking about).

 - Second, standard talk was something like "NeXT..., nobody wants to run
that any more, but if you buy a recent Mac you get Mac OSX ....".

No way to talk about something else than new I-Macs and MacOSX (nice somehow
but not the price what I plan to spend).

Anyway thanks for the suggestion.

Christophe Renard
email : crenard@NOSPAM.meditnet.com

Hello All,

After reading our french friend's original story, and the few replies, I
am wonder why we cannot make a CD-Image (ISO or whatever) and some
Diskette Images for the boot disks, and ship them over the net to him -
presumably he can get access to a CD-Recorder...

Thing is, this all sounds good in theory, but I don't know the first
things about duping a NeXT CD... I don't personally have a CD-Recorder, so
I never play with such things. Has anyone else had any luck copying the
NeXT CDs or Diskettes?

And no, I do not care about the legality of the situation... if you want
to discuss that, start a different thread. I want to talk about helping
out the guy in france and the guy in italy.

-Nick


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Christophe Renard wrote:

> Well it seems that Apple does not really want anymore with those "Olds"
> stuffs.
> 
> I could talk to some Apple guys (on the last Linux Expo) regarding their
> support and that was not really great:
> 
>  - First, they did not know NextStep (I had to actually tell the guy that it
> was the OS of the NeXT, brought back to Apple by Job, before he would
> see(somehow) what I was talking about).
> 
>  - Second, standard talk was something like "NeXT..., nobody wants to run
> that any more, but if you buy a recent Mac you get Mac OSX ....".
> 
> No way to talk about something else than new I-Macs and MacOSX (nice somehow
> but not the price what I plan to spend).
> 
> Anyway thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Christophe Renard
> email : crenard@NOSPAM.meditnet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

In article 
<Pine.BSI.4.21.0204260443001.23757-100000@granite.sover.net>,
 Nicholas Floersch <bfloer@sover.net> wrote:

> Hello All,

Also hello,

> Thing is, this all sounds good in theory, but I don't know the first
> things about duping a NeXT CD... I don't personally have a CD-Recorder, so
> I never play with such things. Has anyone else had any luck copying the
> NeXT CDs or Diskettes?

That would be point for me as well. But I think you can duplicate them 
under Linux because Linux is able too read the NS filesystem (usually 
you have to config that - AFAIK it is a loadable module (something with 
modprobe or like that)). Unfortunately I don't have a CD-writer which is  
usable on the Linux box I have. Maybe when I buy a new one (but will 
take some time - no money :-() I'll play around with it. I would 
appreciate a saftey copy in case the originals got hurt (what hopefully 
never will happen!!). 

> And no, I do not care about the legality of the situation... if you want
> to discuss that, start a different thread. I want to talk about helping
> out the guy in france and the guy in italy.

Under normal circumstances I would call this piracy - but here we have a 
different situation - the OS isn't maintained in any way by Apple and 
the support is more or less lousy. In this case I think copying the OS 
for people who are really interested should be okay - would Apple go 
bankrupt if a couple of users copy an old OS? I don't think so and agree 
with you. ;-)
So I'd like to ask if there's a tool (even for command line - I don't 
mind :-)) to make *.iso files from any devices? Then I could burn the 
ISO file on my Mac... 

Oliver

-- 

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!

Oliver Margraf (om02@hdm-stuttgart.de) wrote:
: [...]
: So I'd like to ask if there's a tool (even for command line - I don't 
: mind :-)) to make *.iso files from any devices? Then I could burn the 
: ISO file on my Mac... 

I'm not quite sure if I get what you mean/want, but ...

There is 'mkisofs' even under NS/OS - as well as Linux and many other
operating systems -, so that on a running system you can make an iso-image.
If the system understands the NS/OS BFFS - like on NS/OS itself -, you can
just 'select' the files and 'combine' them to a '.iso'; this can also be
done by mounting the CDs on a Linux system with the correct mount-
incantation (-t ufs -o ufstype=nextstep-cd), as you pointed out.

You'll end up with a single (large) file, that you can burn on any
'burning device' you can transport the file to (e.g. by 'Jaz', network
or whatever) and the operating system of which is capable of burning
a .iso (or raw-file). Is this what you meant? Or is '... make *.iso
files from any devices?' something else to mean? Especially the 'any'?

Greetings,
 Ruediger

In article <aabsvd$ouc$1@rs04.hrz.uni-essen.de>,
 phy070@power.uni-essen.de (H.-R. Oberhage) wrote:

> There is 'mkisofs' even under NS/OS - as well as Linux and many other
> operating systems -, so that on a running system you can make an iso-image.
> If the system understands the NS/OS BFFS - like on NS/OS itself -, you can
> just 'select' the files and 'combine' them to a '.iso'; this can also be
> done by mounting the CDs on a Linux system with the correct mount-
> incantation (-t ufs -o ufstype=nextstep-cd), as you pointed out.

That's a good proposal - mkiosfs for NeXT is available at peanuts, isn't 
it?

> 
> You'll end up with a single (large) file, that you can burn on any
> 'burning device' you can transport the file to (e.g. by 'Jaz', network
> or whatever) and the operating system of which is capable of burning
> a .iso (or raw-file). Is this what you meant?

This was exactly what I meant - sorry for not being precise :-).

> Or is '... make *.iso
> files from any devices?' something else to mean? Especially the 'any'?

Primarily I meant the filesystem but with 'any' more or less the devices 
(CD Drive, HD etc.) - but this doesn't matter when you can mount and 
read it. 

Oliver

-- 

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!

I can provide some temporary ftp space for these ISO files. However, my
cable-modem provider has throttled my upload speed down to 15kb/s which
means uploading a 600mb image will take forever. So, I can make the ISO,
and I can store it, but I cannot easily transfer the ISO I made to the
storage - does someone else have a faster upload speed to either

pan.ubishops.ca
or
chyros.ubishops.ca

Also, all of this talk of ISO images does not provide a solution for
getting the bootdisks to our friends in need. Will "dd" work fine? Or does
it take magic to dupe a NS bootdisk?

-Nick

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Oliver Margraf wrote:

> > You'll end up with a single (large) file, that you can burn on any
> > 'burning device' you can transport the file to (e.g. by 'Jaz', network
> > or whatever) and the operating system of which is capable of burning
> > a .iso (or raw-file). Is this what you meant?

Oliver Margraf <om02@hdm-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> Under normal circumstances I would call this piracy - but here we have a 
> different situation - the OS isn't maintained in any way by Apple and 
> the support is more or less lousy. In this case I think copying the OS 
> for people who are really interested should be okay - would Apple go 
> bankrupt if a couple of users copy an old OS? I don't think so and agree 
> with you. ;-)

You appear to understand that it's wrong to steal software when the company is
still selling it.  You seem to believe that it somehow becomes okay to steal
software once that product is no longer being sold.

Maybe an analogy would help: If it's not okay to steal a new car off of the
dealer's lot, would it be okay to steal a used car from a user car dealer's
lot?  Would it matter whether Ford or whoever was still making that particular
model of car or whether they had discontinued that model?

[ Note that what we're discussing has nothing to do with opinion, merely
  straightforward facts and the law.  My opinions about 'abandonware' are
  actually pretty close to yours, but, unlike many people, I don't wish away
  unpleasant facts simply because they conflict with my opinions.  You don't
  somehow gain the right to take something just because you want it. ]

> So I'd like to ask if there's a tool (even for command line - I don't mind
> :-)) to make *.iso files from any devices? Then I could burn the ISO file on
> my Mac...  Oliver

There is something called mkisofs, but you would need to perform a raw copy of
the NEXTSTEP installation CDs for the copy to contain a bootable filesystem.

An ISO image wouldn't be bootable.

-Chuck

       Chuck Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | All your packets are belong to us.
       -------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
       "The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts
        is to ignore them."  -Celia Green

In article <aac5te$c9d$1@shot.codefab.com>,
 "Chuck Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> You appear to understand that it's wrong to steal software when the company is
> still selling it.  You seem to believe that it somehow becomes okay to steal
> software once that product is no longer being sold.

No, I don't believe that it becomes okay to steal software ever! Anyway, 
I didn't say, that I want to steal it (because I own a license) but want 
to help people who are interested and have no possibility to get it 
anymore - not for money.

> Maybe an analogy would help: If it's not okay to steal a new car off of the
> dealer's lot, would it be okay to steal a used car from a user car dealer's
> lot? 
In this case it wouldn't be the car, it would be the engine. And I 
wouldn't steal it, I would give it away as a present.

> Would it matter whether Ford or whoever was still making that particular
> model of car or whether they had discontinued that model?

I think there's a difference: If you own a vintage car e.g. a Mercedes 
you still get support for it from the company (ok not from every 
carmaker, but most help you out - at least in Germany) and then you can 
still buy things. Apple isn't giving any support for NS/OS, so I ask 
you, what should people do then?
I agree with you when you say, stealing is breaking the law. But in this 
case, there are only a few people, neither hundreds nor thousands. So 
the damage for the company (in this case Apple) wouldn't be that 
considerable. I think it's more critical ( and criminal), when you burn 
a copy of NS/OS and sell it (as I found out that there are people in the 
US who are doing so). But I think if you help someone, who is interested 
in this, he should get the chance to see/use it. Apple won't give NS/OS 
free although it's not compatible with OSX. That's a point I don't 
understand and I think in this case you can "bend" the law a little ;-)
But don't missunderstand my opinion. I think there's already enough 
piracy out there, but this should be an exception.
> 
> [ Note that what we're discussing has nothing to do with opinion, merely
>   straightforward facts and the law.  My opinions about 'abandonware' are
>   actually pretty close to yours, but, unlike many people, I don't wish away
>   unpleasant facts simply because they conflict with my opinions.  You don't
>   somehow gain the right to take something just because you want it. ]

I don't wish away unpleasant facts, but tell me another solution? You' 
re right and I'm wrong, but in this case it's not that easy (ok, not for 
a lawyer, but for a NeXTfan).

> There is something called mkisofs, but you would need to perform a raw copy of
> the NEXTSTEP installation CDs for the copy to contain a bootable filesystem.
> An ISO image wouldn't be bootable.

That doesn't matter when I have an image and burn it directly to the CD 
- it will be a copy of the CD from which the image was made. AFAIK the 
NS 3.3 CD isn't bootable.


Oliver

-- 

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!

Oliver Margraf <om02@hdm-stuttgart.de> writes:

> So I'd like to ask if there's a tool (even for command line - I don't 
> mind :-)) to make *.iso files from any devices? Then I could burn the 
> ISO file on my Mac... 
> 
Under Linux you can easily create an ISO image from a NeXTSTEP CD-ROM
using
          dd if=/dev/scd0 of=NeXTSTEP.iso

and then burn it with cdrecord or whatever you please.  Works fine and
one doesn't have to remotely bother about the filesysten used on the
original CD-ROM.  Been there, done that.
                                         Cheers, P. *8^)
-- 
     ------------ Paul Seelig <pseelig@uni-mainz.de> --------------
   African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
   Johannes Gutenberg-University   -  Forum 6  -  55099 Mainz/Germany
     ----------------- http://ntama.uni-mainz.de ------------------

Nicholas Floersch <bfloer@sover.net> writes:

> I can provide some temporary ftp space for these ISO files. However, my
> cable-modem provider has throttled my upload speed down to 15kb/s which
> means uploading a 600mb image will take forever.
>
Just gzip the images and it will shrink more than 50%.

> Also, all of this talk of ISO images does not provide a solution for
> getting the bootdisks to our friends in need. Will "dd" work fine? Or does
> it take magic to dupe a NS bootdisk?
>
dd works perfectly.
                                    Cheers, P. *8^)
-- 
     ------------ Paul Seelig <pseelig@uni-mainz.de> --------------
   African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
   Johannes Gutenberg-University   -  Forum 6  -  55099 Mainz/Germany
     ----------------- http://ntama.uni-mainz.de ------------------

Oliver Margraf wrote:
> Under normal circumstances I would call this piracy - but here we have a 
> different situation - the OS isn't maintained in any way by Apple and 
> the support is more or less lousy. In this case I think copying the OS 
> for people who are really interested should be okay - would Apple go 
> bankrupt if a couple of users copy an old OS? I don't think so and agree 
> with you. ;-)

Actually, it has to do with copyright law, not with the far more sane
consideration of helping a neighbor.  In copyright law I've read, I don't
recall any consideration for level of support or degree of maintenance.  I'm
not going to say it's "piracy" because that is propaganda talk.  I will say
it is unauthorized duplication and distribution, and in most countries it is
illegal; points I'm surprised more of the old NeXT users aren't chiming in
to note as they have in the past.

In article <slrnackb83.ofd.jbn@forestfield.org>,
 "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:

> Actually, it has to do with copyright law, not with the far more sane
> consideration of helping a neighbor.  In copyright law I've read, I don't
> recall any consideration for level of support or degree of maintenance.  I'm
> not going to say it's "piracy" because that is propaganda talk.  I will say
> it is unauthorized duplication and distribution, and in most countries it is
> illegal; points I'm surprised more of the old NeXT users aren't chiming in
> to note as they have in the past.

Ok, you're right. Sorry for that what I mentioned about copying. Forget 
my idea about helping.
I respect the law.

Oliver



-- 

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!

Hello again,

Ok, so, this dd command, as quoted below will work perfectly? This has
been tried? Are we sure that there is no need for, say, setting the
blocksize (bs=..) parameter or anything? As I said, I do not have a burner
to try this out with.

I doubt anyone would know, but I am using BeOS to dd the disc to file -
that should not be any problem I hope - unless default settings for dd
under Be are different than Linux or NS.

I also saw that someone wrote in after this message with an affirmative
that using dd (gosh, what a useful program) will make the diskettes fine
as well.

Next question - I live in North America - internet access is cheap and
fast... what about our friends in France and Italy? Will they be able to
download this file successfully - and even if they do manage a successful
download, will it cost soo much that it is infeasible?

It seems like it would make more sense, speed wise, for the images to be
on an FTP server on their side of the pond... is this rational?

Lastly, as I stated when I first posted about doing this, lets move the
legality and copyright discussion to a different thread... maybe one named
"flame me cuz' my views on copyright are different than yours" or
something like that... :) Then everyone can argue about copyright and
piracy like they always do and it will go nowhere, but it won't confuse
this thread...

later..
Nick

---
On 26 Apr 2002, Paul Seelig wrote:

> Oliver Margraf <om02@hdm-stuttgart.de> writes:
> 
> > So I'd like to ask if there's a tool (even for command line - I don't 
> > mind :-)) to make *.iso files from any devices? Then I could burn the 
> > ISO file on my Mac... 
> > 
> Under Linux you can easily create an ISO image from a NeXTSTEP CD-ROM
> using
>           dd if=/dev/scd0 of=NeXTSTEP.iso
> 
> and then burn it with cdrecord or whatever you please.  Works fine and
> one doesn't have to remotely bother about the filesysten used on the
> original CD-ROM.  Been there, done that.
>                                          Cheers, P. *8^)
> 

Nicholas Floersch <bfloer@sover.net> wrote:
> Ok, so, this dd command, as quoted below will work perfectly? This has
> been tried? Are we sure that there is no need for, say, setting the
> blocksize (bs=..) parameter or anything? As I said, I do not have a burner
> to try this out with.

The blocksize is probably 2048 bytes.  That's why most NeXT systems require a
boot floppy (or floptical), since only the last ROM version could natively
boot from a device using 2048- rather than 512-byte sector size.

There is nothing unusual about the NeXT CD's; any standard duplicating
software (EZ-CD Creator, Toast, Nero) will work fine.  'dd' + 'burncd -fixate'
under FreeBSD should also work, though I haven't actually tried the latter.

> I also saw that someone wrote in after this message with an affirmative
> that using dd (gosh, what a useful program) will make the diskettes fine
> as well.

Yes.

[ ... ]
> Lastly, as I stated when I first posted about doing this, lets move the
> legality and copyright discussion to a different thread... maybe one named
> "flame me cuz' my views on copyright are different than yours" or
> something like that... :) Then everyone can argue about copyright and
> piracy like they always do and it will go nowhere, but it won't confuse
> this thread...

If whoever it is has NeXT hardware, I believe that he or she has the right to
NS 3.3 User due to Y2K remediation, and giving them a copy of the software
probably falls under "fair use".  That doesn't mean Developer, or WebObjects,
or EOF, of course.  Not that I am (or would pretend to be) a lawyer.

As for the rest of what you're saying, I haven't flamed anyone-- I'm just
calling things the way they are, not telling anyone what they should or
shouldn't do.  Sometimes people read more into what I'm saying than what was
actually said.

-Chuck

       Chuck Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | All your packets are belong to us.
       -------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
       "The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts
        is to ignore them."  -Celia Green

Chuck Swiger wrote:
> You appear to understand that it's wrong to steal software when the company is
> still selling it.  You seem to believe that it somehow becomes okay to steal
> software once that product is no longer being sold.

Unauthorized duplication and distribution is not theft.

> [ Note that what we're discussing has nothing to do with opinion, merely
>   straightforward facts and the law...

The law distinguishes between theft versus unauthorized duplication and
distribution.  What's going on here is people assisting other people to make
unauthorized copies and distribute those copies to their friends (otherwise
known as sharing), not stealing.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Theft has 3 brief
paragraphs to say about calling copyright infringement theft.

Nicholas Floersch <bfloer@sover.net> writes:

> Ok, so, this dd command, as quoted below will work perfectly? This has
> been tried? Are we sure that there is no need for, say, setting the
> blocksize (bs=..) parameter or anything?
> 
Yes, i have not only tried but even succeeded without any problems
whatsoever.  I've used the backup copy for successful installation on
a HP9000 715/64.  Under Linux i used to install it into VMware using
just the ISO files instead of physical media (BTW, installation went
fine, but it doesn't run fast enough to warrant any usability).

                                    Cheers, P. *8^)
-- 
     ------------ Paul Seelig <pseelig@uni-mainz.de> --------------
   African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
   Johannes Gutenberg-University   -  Forum 6  -  55099 Mainz/Germany
     ----------------- http://ntama.uni-mainz.de ------------------

J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
> Chuck Swiger wrote:
>> You appear to understand that it's wrong to steal software when the company
>> is still selling it.  You seem to believe that it somehow becomes okay to
>> steal software once that product is no longer being sold.
>
> Unauthorized duplication and distribution is not theft.

Is that your opinion, or are you claiming that everyone would agree that your
statement is a fact?

>> [ Note that what we're discussing has nothing to do with opinion, merely
>>   straightforward facts and the law...
> 
> The law distinguishes between theft versus unauthorized duplication and
> distribution.  What's going on here is people assisting other people to make
> unauthorized copies and distribute those copies to their friends (otherwise
> known as sharing), not stealing.

Care to ask Adobe or Pixar what they think, specificly whether it's okay for
someone to put a copy of NEXTSTEP (containing copyrighted software like
PostScript or RenderMan) on an anonymous FTP server?

If they say "no", would it become theft then?

Your claim that putting software on an anonymous FTP server is "sharing with
friends" is 100-percent, US-RDA certified, grade-A, bullshit.

> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Theft has 3 brief
> paragraphs to say about calling copyright infringement theft.

Ah, well then.  Forgive me if I have to say that I don't always agree with
the GNU philosophy.  Good intentions, and all.

Come to think of it, I also don't remember using that word-- theft-- myself.
It's interesting that you also equate "stealing software" with "theft",
however.  No?  That's not what you meant?

-Chuck

       Chuck Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | All your packets are belong to us.
       -------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
       "The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts
        is to ignore them."  -Celia Green

Oliver Margraf wrote:
> Ok, you're right. Sorry for that what I mentioned about copying. Forget 
> my idea about helping.

I hope you don't.  Helping your neighbor is how people get along.  It is
very important to help your neighbor.  Sharing is good and is respectable.
That said, copyright law makes some sharing illegal.

> I respect the law.

Bad laws don't deserve respect.  I hope you'll help your neighbor switch to
software that doesn't punish being a good neighbor.  I hope you'll consider
switching to Free Software.

I just purchased an OpenStep User CD from a friend of mine for quite a
bit of money, more than I would have liked to pay.  I love the
software, but I wish that I still had the money I spent on it.  I know
where NS/OS is available for illegal download, but I decided to go the
legal route.

I realize that much of OpenStep is the intellectual property of other
companies, but I have a proposal to make.  Why doesn't Apple give
OpenStep away for free to Mac OS X owners like myself?  Apple already
gives away the dev tools for Mac OS X (almost the same dev tools as
OpenStep, from what I can tell from OpenStep screenshots); why
shouldn't it do the same for OpenStep owners?  The Apple compiler is
based off of GCC, and other Apple stuff is based off of BSD (now
released for free as Darwin).  I realize that some of the OS belongs
to other companies, but doesn't Mac OS X have almost the same Display
Postscript (now called Quartz) as NS/OS?  Aren't the applications that
NeXT wrote (Mail.app, Edit.app) now included with Mac OS X?  Since I
have already paid Apple for just about everything included in
OpenStep, why shouldn't I get OpenStep for free?

Somebody should write a petition on PetitionOnline to Apple to release
OpenStep as freeware for all those who legally own Mac OS X.

Hello,

It's been a while since I last checked the group and I'm surprised of the
thread growth.

Then, first, thanks for all your care.

The ISO download solution will probably be unnecessary for me because some
very helpfull guy directly contacted me and offered some original
installation media for a symbolic price (thousand thanks to him). But that's
seems to still be a pending question for some other NeXT owners that
periodicaly seem to seek it.

"Nicholas Floersch" <bfloer@sover.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSI.4.21.0204270117370.15978-100000@granite.sover.net...
>
...
> I also saw that someone wrote in after this message with an affirmative
> that using dd (gosh, what a useful program) will make the diskettes fine
> as well.
That would probably work fine on any Unix like OS.

> Next question - I live in North America - internet access is cheap and
> fast... what about our friends in France and Italy? Will they be able to
> download this file successfully - and even if they do manage a successful
> download, will it cost soo much that it is infeasible?
This would work quite easily, Internet access has become quite inexpensive
in western europe and transatlantic links have been greatly improved those 2
last years.

> It seems like it would make more sense, speed wise, for the images to be
> on an FTP server on their side of the pond... is this rational?
This would not be required, I think.


> Lastly, as I stated when I first posted about doing this, lets move the
> legality and copyright discussion to a different thread... maybe one named
> "flame me cuz' my views on copyright are different than yours" or
> something like that... :) Then everyone can argue about copyright and
> piracy like they always do and it will go nowhere, but it won't confuse
> this thread...
My feeling is since Apple offered freely theese software to Black hardware
owners, this who probably quite close to legality to let owners download it.
But as some have highlighten, that's still a risk.

Thanks again.

--
Christophe Renard

In article <61771b85.0204281417.2a80ce8c@posting.google.com>,
 ben_shelton@mac.com (oldmacman) wrote:
> I realize that some of the OS belongs
> to other companies, but doesn't Mac OS X have almost the same Display
> Postscript (now called Quartz) as NS/OS?  

No, because it's based on PDF - DPS won't ne developed any further by 
Adobe.

> Aren't the applications that
> NeXT wrote (Mail.app, Edit.app) now included with Mac OS X?

AFAIK, these Apps are 'ported' to OS X - because of different APIs 
(please correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm not into Objective C).

> Since I
> have already paid Apple for just about everything included in
> OpenStep, why shouldn't I get OpenStep for free?

Because it's Apple!


Oliver

-- 

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!

> > Aren't the applications that
> > NeXT wrote (Mail.app, Edit.app) now included with Mac OS X?
> 
> AFAIK, these Apps are 'ported' to OS X - because of different APIs 
> (please correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm not into Objective C).
> 
The API's are pretty darn similar.  Cocoa is pretty much the
frameworks that NeXT has.  If you look at Cocoa applications, even the
NeXT font panel is there!
> > Since I
> > have already paid Apple for just about everything included in
> > OpenStep, why shouldn't I get OpenStep for free?
> 
> Because it's Apple!
> 
At least Apple gives me free updates for OS X instead of charging me
like Micro$oft.