🚀 go-pugleaf

[snip]

What OS and Mac are you using?  What exactly is this fax?  Is it just
plain text?  Are you sending it with a cover sheet?

But aside from that, it sounds like there's a problem with something
(yes, all right, I know, it's obvious).

If the chooser is behaving strangely, it might be something bizarre, or
it might just be the horribly buggy GV software screwing things up.  If
I were you, I'd try zapping the PRAM with TechTool (to retain hours of
use and date of manufacture) and see if that helps.  If not...  You
might try removing any prefs to do with Apple Menu Options (just in
case), the chooser/finder/system, and Global Village.  If I were you,
I'd remove the Global Village folder from the prefs folder (don't bin it
because there might be stuff in there you want to keep), trash all the
GV extensions, control panels, and applications, re-boot, do a
re-install of the OS (no need for a clean install - just make sure all
the system files are fresh), re-install the GV software, and then see
how you get on.

If that doesn't work, try sulking.

Rowland.

-- 
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In article <1d3dwp6.x4my1v5c8j1gN@p34.nas1.is2.u-net.net>,
real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar (Rebecca and wrote:

>What OS and Mac are you using?  What exactly is this fax?  Is it just
>plain text?  Are you sending it with a cover sheet?

LCIII, system 7.1. Just plain text. No cover sheet.

>But aside from that, it sounds like there's a problem with something
>(yes, all right, I know, it's obvious).
>
>If the chooser is behaving strangely, it might be something bizarre, or
>it might just be the horribly buggy GV software screwing things up.  If
>I were you, I'd try zapping the PRAM with TechTool (to retain hours of
>use and date of manufacture) and see if that helps.  

Actually, that's the one thing I *haven't* tried.

>If not...  You
>might try removing any prefs to do with Apple Menu Options (just in
>case), the chooser/finder/system, and Global Village.  

Done that - problem persists. But only with this one fax.

>If I were you,
>I'd remove the Global Village folder from the prefs folder (don't bin it
>because there might be stuff in there you want to keep), trash all the
>GV extensions, control panels, and applications, re-boot, 

Done that too.

>do a
>re-install of the OS (no need for a clean install - just make sure all
>the system files are fresh), 

I was hoping to avoid this!

>re-install the GV software, and then see
>how you get on.
>
>If that doesn't work, try sulking.

:-)) That *is* my usual fallback plan! Thanks for your help anyway.

Steve Firth <filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]


> I don't agree BTW that GV fax software is horribly buggy, it's probably
> the best available. If you try Delrina Fax Pro, you can get a feel for
> buggy.

Have you ever had to re-install your operating system because of Delrina
Fax Pro?  Faults I can cope with, sometimes, but...  The GV software has
been responsible for untold numbers of crashes and hangs on my Performa
475, large amounts of HD damage, and so on, under System 7.1 and 7.6.
It's so poor that I dare not connect to the internet with any part of
the GV software installed - doing so virtually guarantees some sort of
problem - anything from an inability to connect wth using PPP and TCP/IP
to a system freeze and serious HD damage.

I gather that not everyone has had my experience, but I've read of
enough people having similar serious problems because of the GV software
that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[snip]

Rowland.

-- 
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Rebecca and Rowland wrote:
> 
> Steve Firth <filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I don't agree BTW that GV fax software is horribly buggy, it's probably
> > the best available. If you try Delrina Fax Pro, you can get a feel for
> > buggy.
> 
> Have you ever had to re-install your operating system because of Delrina
> Fax Pro?  Faults I can cope with, sometimes, but...  The GV software has
> been responsible for untold numbers of crashes and hangs on my Performa
> 475, large amounts of HD damage, and so on, under System 7.1 and 7.6.
> It's so poor that I dare not connect to the internet with any part of
> the GV software installed - doing so virtually guarantees some sort of
> problem - anything from an inability to connect wth using PPP and TCP/IP
> to a system freeze and serious HD damage.
> 
> I gather that not everyone has had my experience, but I've read of
> enough people having similar serious problems because of the GV software
> that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

I have a GV platinum and related software and never had any problems.

-- 
Lawrence Flowers                  |   Tel    +44 1444 811 966
LEAF TECHNICAL SERVICES LIMITED   |   Fax    +44 1444 811 000
                                  |   Mobile +44  973 600 111
                                  |   flowerpots@bigfoot.com

Jocelyn Lavin wrote:
> 
> Help!!!
> 
> All of a sudden I can't send just one particular fax with my GV Teleport
> Platinum. It was OK the other day. Nothing on the system has changed since
> then. But now, if I try faxing the document from Claris Works, I get a bomb
> (system error) or a complete freeze (the former if I remove all but
> fax-related extensions etc.), the latter before I changed anything. If I
> try faxing it from SimpleText, I get a type 2 error and SimpleText quits
> without faxing, although there's no freeze or bomb. The other symptom is
> that the Chooser kept behaving strangely - selecting fax instead of print,
> so that fax is what appeared in the file menu, even after I'd changed it.
> 
> I've tried everything I can think of - changing the name of the file,
> copying the text into a completely new document, removing extensions and
> control panels, rebuilding the desk top, deleting preferences, reinstalling
> fax software, reinstalling the Chooser, defragmenting the disk, running
> Disk First Aid, running Norton Utilities (both said the disk was fine).
> 
> Any suggestions?

Have you been swopping printers ports with an Appletalk network or similar?

Check your printer is connected to the printer port and selected as such, in
the chooser.  This sometimes caused the fax/option key to be fax only.  Did
you have any shortcuts open in Claris works?

I have GV plat ext, 5200 & 475, OS8 ....if I can be of any further help.

-- 
Lawrence Flowers                  |   Tel    +44 1444 811 966
LEAF TECHNICAL SERVICES LIMITED   |   Fax    +44 1444 811 000
                                  |   Mobile +44  973 600 111
                                  |   flowerpots@bigfoot.com

In article <1d3fd0m.702lwg1bd674nN@firthcom.demon.co.uk>,
filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:

>> LCIII, system 7.1. Just plain text. No cover sheet.
>
>That rings alarm bells. Are you printing from within Simple Text? I have
>found that Simple Text and GV don't get on at all well. If you ever get
>to see a preview of the fax, Simple Text assumes that the page is tiny.
>Probably a fault in the information that the driver is supplying to
>Simple Text.

I started with it in Claris Works. I only tried Simple Text when the CW
version crashed.

>I don't agree BTW that GV fax software is horribly buggy, it's probably
>the best available. 

I certainly think so! 

>Have you considered trying again from a different application
>(i.e. open the text file in Word, Works, ClarisWorks, BBEdit whatever)
>and sending it from there?

That's the first thing I did - it still wouldn't send, but crashed in a
different way (see original msg!)

I've now tried zapping the PRAM - no difference. I was about to reinstall
the system when I had a brainwave. I discovered that I can send this
particular fax to *any* other address, and I couldn't send *any* fax to
this address (which is in Equatorial Guinea, as it happens, but I think
that's irrelevant!). Aha! I thought - it's the address! So I deleted the
address and put in the same phone number under a different name - and found
that I could then send the fax! Weird. And I still don't know what was up
with the first address.

In article <1d3fs56.1jiuad2kn9twmN@p7.nas1.is2.u-net.net>,
real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar (Rebecca and wrote:

>> I don't agree BTW that GV fax software is horribly buggy, it's probably
>> the best available. If you try Delrina Fax Pro, you can get a feel for
>> buggy.
>
>Have you ever had to re-install your operating system because of Delrina
>Fax Pro?  Faults I can cope with, sometimes, but...  The GV software has
>been responsible for untold numbers of crashes and hangs on my Performa
>475, large amounts of HD damage, and so on, under System 7.1 and 7.6.
>It's so poor that I dare not connect to the internet with any part of
>the GV software installed - doing so virtually guarantees some sort of
>problem - anything from an inability to connect wth using PPP and TCP/IP
>to a system freeze and serious HD damage.
>
>I gather that not everyone has had my experience, but I've read of
>enough people having similar serious problems because of the GV software
>that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Weird - I've never had any problem with it in 4 years till this weekend.

In article <34CC64DB.3122E1F7@bigfoot.com>,
Lawrence Flowers <flowerpots@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Have you been swopping printers ports with an Appletalk network or similar?

No - the chooser just decided to select the fax option, with no assistance
from me! I only *opened* the chooser when I was surprised to see "fax"
instead of "print" in the file menu.

>Check your printer is connected to the printer port and selected as such, in
>the chooser.  This sometimes caused the fax/option key to be fax only.  Did
>you have any shortcuts open in Claris works?

No! Problem now solved anyway (see other msg) but thanks for the help.

Jocelyn Lavin <jocelyn@wardle.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1d3fs56.1jiuad2kn9twmN@p7.nas1.is2.u-net.net>,
> real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar (Rebecca and wrote:
> 
> >> I don't agree BTW that GV fax software is horribly buggy, it's probably
> >> the best available. If you try Delrina Fax Pro, you can get a feel for
> >> buggy.
[snip]

> >I gather that not everyone has had my experience, but I've read of
> >enough people having similar serious problems because of the GV software
> >that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
> 
> Weird - I've never had any problem with it in 4 years till this weekend.

I have a suspicion that the 68K vs. PPC divide is relevant in this case.

Rowland.


-- 
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PGP pub key A680B89D; fingerprint: F5605EAE F56F2C0B 818F3319 5227767F
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Steve Firth <filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a suspicion that the 68K vs. PPC divide is relevant in this case.
> 
> You still have a 68K machine?

Three 68000 Macs (Plus, 512Ke, and (currently dead) Portable) and a
68LC040 Performa 475.  Quite enough for now - why shell out loads more
dosh when I don't have to?

Admittedly, we only use the Plus and 475 regularly, but I'm intent on
getting the 512Ke LocalTalked to the other machines.  This might be
useful if we can figure out some useful task for a virtually memory-free
computer in the kitchen...  And maybe I'll be able to resurrect the
Portable one day - it's actually very nice, if you don't mind System
6.0.8 off a 1.4MB floppy ('cos the HDD's dead) and 1MB RAM.

Rowland
(who will be buying a PowerMac some time in 1999 or 2000 when Rhapsody
is the thing and Apple's stopped making OSs for 475s)

-- 
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Steve Firth <filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Rebecca and Rowland wrote:
> 
> > I have a suspicion that the 68K vs. PPC divide is relevant in this case.
> 
> You still have a 68K machine?

And just what's wrong with that?! :-)

I'm *just* on the cusp of replacing my personal 1993 Quadra 660AV,
now that I can get a G3 with:
(1) >10 times the processor speed [1]
(2) 12 times faster CD-ROM
(3) >10 times stock memory
(4) >10 times stock HD 
for less than the 660AV cost.[2]

I *think* I've got my money's worth out of it. :-)

Never mind Moore's Law - I buy new Macs when the "power"
has increased tenfold.

rgds, Alan
[1] Shame the G3 won't drive the GeoPort at 96K...
[2] Rule #1 of Apple Prices (from 1986-present):
The cheapest Mac is *always* 1,200; the mid-range one is 
*always* 2,000, and the top-end is *always* 4,000. 

Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
wrote:


> Admittedly, we only use the Plus and 475 regularly, but I'm intent on
> getting the 512Ke LocalTalked to the other machines.  This might be
> useful if we can figure out some useful task for a virtually memory-free
> computer in the kitchen...  And maybe I'll be able to resurrect the
> Portable one day - it's actually very nice, if you don't mind System
> 6.0.8 off a 1.4MB floppy ('cos the HDD's dead) and 1MB RAM.
> 
I've been lusting after a portable for a while now. IIRC, it takes
standard 3.5inch HDs, so why not get a new internal drive for the 475
and put the old one in the portable?

BTW, do you know what the termination rules are for HDs on a Plus, I'm
getting nowhere getting mine to recognise SCSI devices at the minute.

-- 
'ric

Alan W. Frame <alan.frame@acm.org> wrote:

Snip

> I'm *just* on the cusp of replacing my personal 1993 Quadra 660AV,
> now that I can get a G3 with:
> (1) >10 times the processor speed [1]
> (2) 12 times faster CD-ROM
> (3) >10 times stock memory
> (4) >10 times stock HD 
> for less than the 660AV cost.[2]
> 
> I *think* I've got my money's worth out of it. :-)
> 
> Never mind Moore's Law - I buy new Macs when the "power"
> has increased tenfold.
> 
> rgds, Alan
> [1] Shame the G3 won't drive the GeoPort at 96K...
> [2] Rule #1 of Apple Prices (from 1986-present):
> The cheapest Mac is *always* 1,200; the mid-range one is 
> *always* 2,000, and the top-end is *always* 4,000. 

Excluding my IIfx which cost 7,000 back in 89-90. Lovely machine
though. Still nice to use now as it goes...

-- 
'ric

Alan W. Frame <alan.frame@acm.org> wrote:

[snip]

> rgds, Alan
> [1] Shame the G3 won't drive the GeoPort at 96K...

Hmm...  It ought to be happy running the serial ports at 230400 bit/s
internally clocked.

[snip]

Rowland.

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In article <1d3mym4.1nw0i2z1e6n934N@firthcom.demon.co.uk>,
filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:

>> I have a suspicion that the 68K vs. PPC divide is relevant in this case.
>
>You still have a 68K machine?

I do - there's no way I can afford to upgrade, and my LCIII still does all
the things I need it to.

ric <btgsch@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Admittedly, we only use the Plus and 475 regularly, but I'm intent on
> > getting the 512Ke LocalTalked to the other machines.  This might be
> > useful if we can figure out some useful task for a virtually memory-free
> > computer in the kitchen...  And maybe I'll be able to resurrect the
> > Portable one day - it's actually very nice, if you don't mind System
> > 6.0.8 off a 1.4MB floppy ('cos the HDD's dead) and 1MB RAM.
> > 
> I've been lusting after a portable for a while now. IIRC, it takes
> standard 3.5inch HDs, so why not get a new internal drive for the 475
> and put the old one in the portable?

Alas, this won't work.  They take special HDDs :-/  SCSI, but a
non-standard connector for some deviant reason - I think it's got
something to do with having to supply power to them and so on.

> BTW, do you know what the termination rules are for HDs on a Plus, I'm
> getting nowhere getting mine to recognise SCSI devices at the minute.

As far as I know, you just need to terminate the last device on the SCSI
chain as usual - a plug-in terminator seems to be the best idea as far
as I can tell.  The problem with Mac Pluses is that the design pre-dates
the final version of the SCSI 1 standard, so it's almost-but-not-quite
standard SCSI.  I've heard of problems trying to boot them off Zip
drives and the like.

I had no trouble connecting my 20SC HDD to it, but that shouldn't be
much of a surprise.  The only other thing I can think of is the Classic
Macs mailing list:

TO SUBSCRIBE

To subscribe to Classic Macs,

send e-mail to <Majordomo@hitznet.com>. In the body of the message write

subscribe classics

You will be added within a day.

Rowland.

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ric <btgsch@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:

> BTW, do you know what the termination rules are for HDs on a Plus, I'm
> getting nowhere getting mine to recognise SCSI devices at the minute.


To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
connections to supply the terminator resistors. 

Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.

If you are handy with a soldering iron and feel happy
messing about inside you gear let me know and I'll
talk you through what to do.

Sean.

Sean Sharkey <sean@g0oanint.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
> host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
> connections to supply the terminator resistors. 
> 
> Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.

If thie voltage is the TERMPWR can you not just enable it on more than
one of the drives attatched?

Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
wrote:
> Alan W. Frame <alan.frame@acm.org> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > rgds, Alan
> > [1] Shame the G3 won't drive the GeoPort at 96K...
> 
> Hmm...  It ought to be happy running the serial ports at 230400 bit/s
> internally clocked.

I meant run the GeoPort as a modem at 96k (i.e. 10 times the modem
speed I originally got from the Q660AV) - I guess 33k6 is probably
still enough of an improvement...

I'm also assuming that PPC GeoPort PSTN adaptor is hardwaredly the
same as the old 68K one. :-/

rgds, Alan

Sean Sharkey <sean@g0oanint.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> ric <btgsch@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > BTW, do you know what the termination rules are for HDs on a Plus, I'm
> > getting nowhere getting mine to recognise SCSI devices at the minute.
> 
> 
> To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
> host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
> connections to supply the terminator resistors. 

Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.

> Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.

I'm using a plug terminator on the end of my Mac Plus's SCSI chain and
it works perfectly happily.

> If you are handy with a soldering iron and feel happy
> messing about inside you gear let me know and I'll
> talk you through what to do.

Hmm...  But you do seem to know what you're talking about - can you be
more explicit about what's going on?

-- 
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Alan W. Frame <alan.frame@acm.org> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
> wrote:
> > Alan W. Frame <alan.frame@acm.org> wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > rgds, Alan
> > > [1] Shame the G3 won't drive the GeoPort at 96K...
> > 
> > Hmm...  It ought to be happy running the serial ports at 230400 bit/s
> > internally clocked.
> 
> I meant run the GeoPort as a modem at 96k (i.e. 10 times the modem
> speed I originally got from the Q660AV) - I guess 33k6 is probably
> still enough of an improvement...

Oh I see - righto.

> I'm also assuming that PPC GeoPort PSTN adaptor is hardwaredly the
> same as the old 68K one. :-/

That shouldn't affect much (at a rough guess) - it's the computer that
does most of the work, so I'd guess that any speed limit you suffer from
is going to be mainly down to processing power.  But this is just a
guess.

Rowland.

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Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
wrote:

> Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
> power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.

SCSI2 specification 5.4.1:

All signals not defined as RESERVED, GROUND, or TERMPWR shall be
terminated at both ends of the cable.  The implementor may choose one of
the following two methods to terminate each end (see figures 9 and 10):

   a)     The termination of each signal shall consist of 220 ohms
(+/-5%) to
          the TERMPWR line and 330 ohms (+/-5%) to ground.  Using
resistors
          with +/-1% tolerance improves noise margins.
   b)     The termination of each signal shall meet these requirements:
       1)    The terminators shall each supply a characteristic
impedance
             between 100 ohms and 132 ohms. 
       2)    The terminators shall be powered by the TERMPWR line and
may
             receive additional power from other sources but shall not
require
             such additional power for proper operation (see 5.4.3).
       3)    The current available to any signal line driver shall not
exceed
             48 mA when the driver asserts the line and pulls it to 0,5
V d.c. 
             Only 44,8 mA of this current shall be available from the
two
             terminators.
       4)    The voltage on all released signal lines shall be at least
2,5 V
             d.c. when the TERMPWR line is within specified values (see
             5.4.3). 
       5)    These conditions shall be met with any legal configuration
of
             targets and initiators as long as at least one device is
             supplying TERMPWR.

The first termination method above is the same as in SCSI-1.  The second
termination method is recommended for better signal quality.

In article <1d3sfvs.1plnbhi1qowoiyN@p31.nas1.is2.u-net.net>,
real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar (Rebecca and wrote:

> Sean Sharkey <sean@g0oanint.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
> > host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
> > connections to supply the terminator resistors. 
> 
> Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
> power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.

I don't have my reference books to hand (on a train), but IIRC termination
works by connecting the signals lines to *both* 0V and 5V through some
resistors. Termination power is certainly needed for even passive
terminators to work correctly

> > Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> > so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> > still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.
>
> I'm using a plug terminator on the end of my Mac Plus's SCSI chain and
> it works perfectly happily.

Many external SCSI devices (especially older ones) supply termination power
to their external SCSI connectors. This lack of termination power on Mac
PLuses is one reason for the old advice to always turn on external devices
before turning on the Mac. I remember having terrible problems with one Mac
Plus/external HD setup, until we found that the internal cable onthe HD had
the term power line not connected.

Paul Durrant

In article <B0F2BB279668BBB7D@wardle.demon.co.uk>,
jocelyn@wardle.demon.co.uk (Jocelyn Lavin) wrote:

>I discovered that I can send this
>particular fax to *any* other address, and I couldn't send *any* fax to
>this address 

Just a thought; did you have a non-printing character in your original of
the address? Such that every time you copied it to the fax, it took the
character with it?

This is one of the most loveable characteristics of the Mac and it
comprehensively messed me about when I first switched from a PeeCee (I
think "loveable" is what I mean....Maybe...)

These non-printing characters can do the damnedest things. 

-- 
Peter

Paul Womar <Newsmaster@pwomar.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
> > power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.
> 
> SCSI2 specification 5.4.1:
> 
> All signals not defined as RESERVED, GROUND, or TERMPWR shall be
> terminated at both ends of the cable.  The implementor may choose one of
> the following two methods to terminate each end (see figures 9 and 10):
> 
>    a)     The termination of each signal shall consist of 220 ohms
> (+/-5%) to
>           the TERMPWR line and 330 ohms (+/-5%) to ground.  Using
> resistors
>           with +/-1% tolerance improves noise margins.
[snip rest of spec]
> The first termination method above is the same as in SCSI-1.  The second
> termination method is recommended for better signal quality.

Well, there you go.  Rowland's completely wrong again.  Thanks - I must
say I'm surprised at this.  I suppose I'd better find out *why* it's
done this way now.

Rowland.

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Paul Durrant <pdurrant@durrant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1d3sfvs.1plnbhi1qowoiyN@p31.nas1.is2.u-net.net>,
> real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar (Rebecca and wrote:
> 
> > Sean Sharkey <sean@g0oanint.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
> > > host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
> > > connections to supply the terminator resistors. 
> > 
> > Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
> > power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.
> 
> I don't have my reference books to hand (on a train), but IIRC termination
> works by connecting the signals lines to *both* 0V and 5V through some
> resistors. Termination power is certainly needed for even passive
> terminators to work correctly

This is the case for the SCSI standard - I'm not sure why.  I've done
termination myself by just connecting a resistor to ground, and it seems
to work quite happily in other situations.

> > > Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> > > so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> > > still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.
> >
> > I'm using a plug terminator on the end of my Mac Plus's SCSI chain and
> > it works perfectly happily.
> 
> Many external SCSI devices (especially older ones) supply termination power
> to their external SCSI connectors. This lack of termination power on Mac
> PLuses is one reason for the old advice to always turn on external devices
> before turning on the Mac. I remember having terrible problems with one Mac
> Plus/external HD setup, until we found that the internal cable onthe HD had
> the term power line not connected.

I see - thanks.

Rowland.

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Paul Womar <Newsmaster@pwomar.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> > so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> > still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.
> 
> If thie voltage is the TERMPWR can you not just enable it on more than
> one of the drives attatched?

This as they say is the long and the sort of it.

Someone else posted details of SCSI spec for SCSI 1 (as used on
a MAc PLus) which as I said stated that

All signals not defined as RESERVED, GROUND, or TERMPWR shall be
terminated at both ends of the cable.  The implementor may choose one of
the following two methods to terminate each end (see figures 9 and 10):

   a)     The termination of each signal shall consist of 220 ohms
(+/-5%) to the TERMPWR line and 330 ohms (+/-5%) to ground.

As I have already said the Mac Plus does not supply this logic line
level (+5v). 

Now Macs including the Plus have an internal terminator so that takes
care of one end of the connection. The other end of your SCSI chain
needs to have some sort of access to a +5V/ TTL level / Logic Line call
it will for the the other set of terminators.

If as some else has suggested already have a   

Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
wrote:

> > To cut a very long story short the SCSI spec states that the
> > host device (Computer) must provide a +5v line on the SCSI
> > connections to supply the terminator resistors. 
> 
> Hang on - that can't be right.  Termination resistors don't need any
> power at all.  They connect from the signal lines to a 0V line.

I'm afraid they do, I would think that you might find that the
terminator resistors are used to pull those logic lines low
and so allowing the SCSI interface to detect if the chain is proplerly
terminatored or not.

Pulling the logic line low without the resistors can be done but in 
the event you ever get a short to ground anywhere on your system
your SCSI interface is going to start drawing large emounts of
current, subbenly your Mac and external gear starts getting very
smelly, very burnt and very dead, time for a new Mac.


> > Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> > so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> > still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.
> 
> I'm using a plug terminator on the end of my Mac Plus's SCSI chain and
> it works perfectly happily.

I'll take a bet that one of your external SCSI devices has been
modifyied internally to supply the +5v line.

Sean Sharkey <sean@g0oanint.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flurbletigibbet.rhubarb.foobar>
> wrote:
[snip]
> Pulling the logic line low without the resistors can be done but in 
> the event you ever get a short to ground anywhere on your system
> your SCSI interface is going to start drawing large emounts of
> current, subbenly your Mac and external gear starts getting very
> smelly, very burnt and very dead, time for a new Mac.

Erm, yes, but I was suggesting that the resistors should be wired up to
the 0V line, thus pulling the logic lines low.  This doesn't need a
power supply.  I don't have the SCSI spec to hand, but it seems that the
220ohms to 5V and 330ohms to 0V arrangement would pull the logic lines
high(ish) - 3V - with an effective resistance of 132ohms to ground as
far as the signal's concerned.

> > > Guess what, the Mac plus doesn't supply this voltage
> > > so even if you use plug terminators your SCSI chain
> > > still can't figure out that anything is connected to it.
> > 
> > I'm using a plug terminator on the end of my Mac Plus's SCSI chain and
> > it works perfectly happily.
> 
> I'll take a bet that one of your external SCSI devices has been
> modifyied internally to supply the +5v line.

As far as I know, the external SCSI device is unmodified.  It's an
original Apple 20SC HDD, developed to run off the Mac Plus, so it'll
supply any termination power needed itself.  I'm using a normal modern
plug-in terminator.

Rowland.

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