🚀 go-pugleaf

Doc wrote:
> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
> under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
> of their hardware with this O/S.
>
> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".
>
> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?  Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
> have the same look as the other versions?
>
> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
> don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
> older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
> Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Same thing.  Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional 
with the Media Center components and lacking a couple of domain related 
features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their 
support time.

-- 
Shenan Stanley
     MS-MVP
-- 
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 

Glennbo wrote:
> In
> news:cf6ed3ec-e011-48ee-ad83-90e4d21d5d9d@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com
> the killer robot Doc <docsavage20@yahoo.com> grabbed the controls of
> the spaceship  cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
>
>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
>> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
>> hardware with this O/S.
>>
>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
>> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
>> don't support it".
>>
>> ??
>>
>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
>
> All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
> OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
> combination.

Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms 
regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they really 
don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

geoff 

"Doc" <docsavage20@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:cf6ed3ec-e011-48ee-ad83-90e4d21d5d9d@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
> hardware with this O/S.

M-Audio isn't alone in this by any means.    The list is more than a few 
lines.

> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell.

If that's the case for you, I would suggest that you might safely invest in 
lottery tickets.

Many people have *no luck at all* installing m-Audio or DigiDesign hardware 
or software, or other audio-recording related devices from other 
manufacturers on MCE; or in the case of actually getting it installed, not 
having it run reliably or usably.

That unreliability is why the manufacturers do not endorse it or support it.

>Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".

Yes.   They can't tell if it will work or not, and can't fix MCE.

MCE is different enough to require a full test programe.

They may have gotten into a test cycle and realized that some of the 
services in MCE prevent the hardware and software from functioning properly, 
predictably or reliably.

In this case the only honest thing to do is to say that MCE isn't supported, 
rather than telling customers that it will work with your hardware.

> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

They know that often enough  it doesn't, and whether it does or not is 
beyond their control.    It apparently doesn't work to their satisfaction, 
and if it doesn't, may not be fixable by any means other than a different 
OS.

DigiDesign does the same thing.   The mBox and ProTools aren't supported 
under MCE either.   Same with Presonus.

They know that, for example,  the extra services running in MCE get in the 
way of recording, and there's no point in wasting time trying to make it 
work by trying to cripple the OS.

> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

Yes, it's simply stated as this:  MCE is unsuitable for this purpose.

Here's the way somebody at Presonus put it:

http://www.presonus.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-131.html

"Like the article says, Media Center edition is not supported, and we have 
certainly encountered users that have irresolvable issues with that OS. 
Other users have had good reports, but as far as in-house testing goes, we 
cannot verify stable functionality with XP Media Center, and therefore do 
not reccommend it."


> Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed

Yes.   It's just not suitable for recording digital audio in a multi-track 
context, which is what the m-Audio and DigiDesign and Presonus etc, hardware 
and sofware is for.

> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP

It's not *wholly* unlike them, but it's different enough to render it 
unsuitable for use with those kinds of hardware and software.

> and just happens to have
> the same look as the other versions?

Pretty much.

> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
> cause?

You bet.   That's why these manufacturers don't support it.

> Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
> versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
> and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

I've seen a number of posts in other groups from people who can NOT get 
either m-Audio or Digidesign hardware or software to work properly in MCE, 
even if they managed to get it installed.    They would up replacing both 
the audio hardware AND the PC.

And, for example,

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ts/detail.php?Index=30163&keyword=30163
=======
"Article # 30163Date: 2006-01-05
Problem:
Windows XP Media Center compatiblity alert (updated 2/12/2007).

Solution:
Windows XP Media Center is a version of Windows specifically designed for 
integration of TV and radio features into the operating system. Microsoft 
gives the following information:


Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, available preinstalled on Media Center 
PCs, allows you to pause and rewind live TV or radio, digitally record an 
entire TV series or program category, watch DVDs and videos, organize and 
play your music collection, and showcase digital photos.
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 makes it easier to access digital 
entertainment wherever you are. Here are some of the top features:

* Multi-tuner support (record two shows at the same time and watch another 
previously recorded show)
* Support for digital and high-definition local TV
* Built-in CD and DVD burning
* Windows Movie Maker 2.1 with DVD burning
* Internet radio
* Enhanced setup wizard for easier installation

(from: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/faq.mspx )

You can also read more about it here: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_xp_media_center


Needless to say, these features, while useful for live media purposes, tend 
to significantly interfere with the vast majority of audio applications. 
Here is an (unofficial) list of software and hardware we have found to be 
unsupported in XP Media Center:

. Digidesign Pro Tools (all versions).
. All M-Audio software and hardware.
. All Steinberg software.
. Cakewalk SONAR (all versions).
. The iLok.
. Syncrosoft USB dongles.
. Focusrite interfaces.
. Lexicon Omega/Alpha/Lambda.
. Edirol interfaces.
. Alesis USB and Firewire mixers.
. All MOTU hardware and software.
. All E-MU hardware and software.
. Native Instruments software.
. Waves software.
. Mackie Spike. Tracktion has been known to work, but is not guaranteed.
. Novation X-Station series.
. TC Eletric PowerCore series.
. Universal Audio UAD-1 cards.
. All RME hardware.
. All PreSonus hardware.
. All TASCAM software and hardware.
. Blue Snowball and Samson C01 USB Microphones.
. Line 6 USB hardware and drivers


Keep in mind that this is an unofficial list. These are simply products that 
we have found, through our experience and through manufacturer requirements, 
to not function properly in XP Media Center. However, you may experience 
full functionality with any of the aforementioned products. Sweetwater can 
only provide support for either XP Home or XP Professional. These are the 
versions that we at Sweetwater install on our Creation Station series, and 
the only versions we have found to be fully compatible with everything we 
sell."

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=54&langid=100&itemid=22905

"Not Supported with any version of Pro Tools:

Windows XP Professional x64 Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition"

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/forum/index.php?topic=1995.0;wap2

"Anyone Know A Midi Controller that works with windows xp media center 
edition? There are practically NO midis i can find to be compatable. I 
wouldnt have bought this stupid laptop if I would have known, because the 
whole point in buying this laptop was for using midi live!! Has anyone 
successfully used this OS with a midi? If so WHICH , because I will buy 
whatever works"
=======

HTH
-pk 

"geoff"  wrote ...
> Glennbo wrote:
>>  Doc wrote...
>>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running 
>>> under
>>> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of 
>>> their
>>> hardware with this O/S.
>>>
>>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
>>> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
>>> don't support it".
>>>
>>> ??
>>>
>>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
>>
>> All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
>> OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
>> combination.
>
> Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms 
> regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they 
> really don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

It does seem to be frought with these kinds of official (or unofficial)
incompatibilities. The Media Center Edition is sufficiently wierd
that I can't think of any reason to subject myself to such voluntary
annoyance.

Note that one difference with MCE (and Vista, et.al.) may also be
more restrictive (and/or expensive) "compatibility certification" from
Microsoft.  The MCE is wierd enough, and has a small enough market
share (and likely more hassle from Microsoft) that it sounds like M-
Audio is practicing good business sense and I rather respect them for 
that. 

"Shenan Stanley" <newshelper@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:ORh5$JtOIHA.5140@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Doc wrote:
>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
>> under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
>> of their hardware with this O/S.
>>
>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
>> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
>> don't support it".
>>
>> ??
>>
>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
>> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?  Is there
>> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
>> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
>> have the same look as the other versions?
>>
>> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
>> don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
>> older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
>> Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.
>
> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems between  MCE 
and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a clean XP Pro install.

> Same thing.  Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional 
> with the Media Center components

And those components are what cause the problems with recording, and that is 
why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to soundcard) manufacturer 
supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.

> and lacking a couple of domain related features...
>
> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their 
> support time.

I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio recording 
hardware and software are rather more fundamental than this, and that the 
manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their 
support time".    Instead, they are trying to save their customers from a 
bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6,  Steinberg, 
produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio recording and 
production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that in-house 
testing and  customer experience has shown to prevent audio recording 
hardware from functioning properly.    Their gear just does not work 
reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or audio 
recording software support MCE.     They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it ruined 
and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you eventually find 
were actually introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of 
saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that has been 
demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.

HTH
-pk


>
> -- 
> Shenan Stanley
>     MS-MVP
> -- 
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> 

Apparently there are at least enough problems that they have chosen 
not to support that configuration.
Non support does not mean it will not work.
In fact many users successfully use various products in nonsupported 
configurations.

The bottom line is if you have problems and you are in a non supported 
path, they can quickly refuse you support so their resources can be 
directed to those with supported configurations.
Non supported is not the same as will not work properly.

-- 
Jupiter Jones  [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar



"Doc" <docsavage20@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:cf6ed3ec-e011-48ee-ad83-90e4d21d5d9d@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of 
> their
> hardware with this O/S.
>
> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".
>
> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?  Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to 
> have
> the same look as the other versions?
>
> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions 
> don't
> cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
> versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
> and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8. 

Doc wrote:
> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
> under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
> of their hardware with this O/S.
>
> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response
> is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but
> we don't support it".
>
> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?  Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
> have the same look as the other versions?
>
> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
> don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
> older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
> Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
>  Same thing.  Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP
> Professional with the Media Center components
> and lacking a couple of domain related features...
>
> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save
> their support time.

Patrick Keenan wrote:
> Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems
> between  MCE and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a
> clean XP Pro install. And those components are what cause the problems 
> with recording,
> [Windows Media Center Components]
> and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to
> soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.
>
> The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.
>  I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio
> recording hardware and software are rather more fundamental than
> this, and that the manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in
> this case "to save their support time".    Instead, they are trying
> to save their customers from a bad experience.
>
> These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6, 
> Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio
> recording and production.
>
> They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that
> in-house testing and  customer experience has shown to prevent
> audio recording hardware from functioning properly.    Their gear
> just does not work reliably under MCE.
>
> Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or
> audio recording software support MCE.     They can't fix it.
>
> If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it
> ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you
> eventually find were actually introduced by OS services, this is
> far beyond a matter of saving support time.
>
> It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that
> has been demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.


Interesting and informational response, Patrick.  I appreciate it!

-- 
Shenan Stanley
     MS-MVP
-- 
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 

On Dec 9, 9:04 pm, Doc <docsavag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
> hardware with this O/S.

> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".

> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

XP Media Center was a very short-lived version and M-Audio is a
relatively small company. Most of their customers for products like
yours are at least semi-professionals who wouldn't be caught dead
using a computer running Media Center. While they may have tested the
card with MC when that version of Windows was first released, they
don't keep up with updates and don't now or care if Microsoft makes
changes to the OS that might make the M-Audio driver incompatible.

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.

On Dec 10, 7:23 am, Mike Rivers <mriv...@d-and-d.com> wrote:

> As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
> will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
> an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
> the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.
>
> That's what "we don't support it" means.


Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer. I tried the media center remote once when I first got it to
verify it worked and haven't even looked at it since. Apparently its
big feature is it lets you use your computer sort of like Tivo.

If it ever gives me problems, I'll try the disable procedure but since
it ain't broke now, etc.

"Shenan Stanley" <newshelper@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ey8TH6vOIHA.5524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl
> Doc wrote:
>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's
>> running under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't
>> support any of their hardware with this O/S.
>>
>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their
>> response is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full
>> functionality but we don't support it".
>>
>> ??

>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or
>> don't they? Can someone clarify what the rationale
>> behind this is?  Is there something fundamentally
>> different about the way XP MCE is designed that it's
>> wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have the same look 
>> as the other versions?

>> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other
>> versions don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it
>> runs fine, including older versions of things that
>> aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5 and
>> Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

They run fine superficially, and will run fine for some people who are 
lucky.

> Shenan Stanley wrote:

>> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
>>  Same thing.  Windows XP Media Center is basically
>> Windows XP Professional with the Media Center components
>> and lacking a couple of domain related features...

It's the media center components that are the rub.

>> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this
>> to save their support time.

No, they sometimes just have to face up to some of the nastier aspects of 
reality, and Windows MCE is IME such a thing.

> Patrick Keenan wrote:

>> Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the
>> problems between  MCE and audio recording gear, unless
>> they're part of a clean XP Pro install. And those components are what
>> cause the problems with recording,
>> [Windows Media Center Components]
>> and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed
>> to soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

>> The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of
>>  Windows XP. I think you'll find that the problems
>> between MCE and audio recording hardware and software are rather more
>> fundamental than this, and that the manufacturers are
>> NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
>> support time".    Instead, they are trying to save their
>> customers from a bad experience.

Agreed.

>> These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus,
>> Line 6, Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for
>> multitrack audio recording and production.

>> They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services
>> that in-house testing and  customer experience has shown to
>> prevent audio recording hardware from functioning properly.

Agreed. MCE was not a bad idea, but the execution is something else.

The problem with MCE is not what in it necessarily does, but what it can do 
under some circumstances.

>> Their gear just does not work reliably under MCE.

Oh, I suspect it can work well, but with MCE it is easy to set the stage for 
disaster.

>> Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio
>> interfaces or audio recording software support MCE.    They can't fix it.

If you understand the potential of MCE, you understand the potential for 
disaster. In MCE it is very easy to set up a timer-driven event that fires 
up the TV capture card in the backghround and writes a monster video file to 
the hard drive.  The TV capture card includes a MPEG encoder that may be 
hardware or may be software. If its software, it can take up most of the 
CPU. If you're capturing a really nice-looking HDTV program you are 
basically writing maybe 5 meg/sec to the hard drive.

What happens if you are trying to record some audio at the same time?

>> If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only
>> to find it ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and
>> pops and dropouts you eventually find were actually
>> introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of saving support 
>> time.

>> It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable
>> operation, and that has been demonstrated as being too
>> often unavailable with MCE.

> Interesting and informational response, Patrick.  I
> appreciate it!

IME he's speaking the truth. 

On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc <docsavag...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
> computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), Doc <docsavage20@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>into XP Pro. 

This keeps being mentioned, but no-one can ever quote just WHAT needs
doing :-)   If there's a set of changes to make, would someone please
post it?

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:07:38 -0800 (PST), Mike Rivers
<mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

>> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
>> computer.
>
>I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
>wasn't a very popular idea.

A lot of computers pre-loaded with MCE were recently on the market
here in the UK at attractive prices.   I know more than one user who
bought one thinking "Media Centre - thet's bound to solve all my
problems working with sound and video!".

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or 
unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold 
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media 
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall 
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up with 
just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see it at 
Media Center anyway.
-- 
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida


"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message 
news:bb3fcbdf-0147-48d7-b552-e487db554af4@q3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc <docsavag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
>> computer.
>
> I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
> wasn't a very popular idea. 

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box 
replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

-- 

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
_________________________________________________________________________________


"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message 
news:bb3fcbdf-0147-48d7-b552-e487db554af4@q3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
> wasn't a very popular idea. 

"David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
> also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with 
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is 
terribly unique. 

On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" <jaimel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
> the Media Center bits.


Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.


http://www.sweetwater.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

All that procedure does is disable the MCE specific sevices, you are just 
essentially not starting the MC interface. It doesn't really make it XP Pro, 
you would still have the same issue with Domain Login and cached credentials 
as you would with the sevice running.

Of course, this would only further prove the point that these various media 
manufactures are just too lazy to test and certify their product on MCE.

At the minimum, they could simple write their install script to warn you and 
disable disable these features. Or they could be real programmers and write 
the code to make their products work correctly instead of taking the lazy 
way out and simply saying it does work.
-- 
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey!"), FL



"Doc" <docsavage20@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:615ea295-f1da-4ccf-a8fd-a1505fd6ae64@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" <jaimel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just 
>> uninstall
>> the Media Center bits.
>
>
> Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
> vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.
>
>
> http://www.sweetwater.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352 

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>> also available in Vista.
> 
> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with 
> video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is 
> terribly unique. 
> 
> 

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was designed to do :-)

"Jaime"  wrote ...
> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" 
> or unpopular idea.
>
> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold 
> millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media 
> Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.
>
> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall 
> the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up 
> with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see 
> it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
so remarkable?  OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
or something, we'll look you up. 

On Dec 11, 12:20 pm, Doc <docsavag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" <jaimel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
> > the Media Center bits.
>
> Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
> vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.
>
> http://www.sweetwater.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

Sweetwater is a completely untrustworthy vendor, and their technical
abilities are limited
only to their constant attempts to "sell" you something.  I wouldn't
follow any of their
suggestions.

Bob Morein
(215) 646-4894

"Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>> also available in Vista.
>>
>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>> unique.

> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
> designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the 
market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software.  I picked up 
a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your 
system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any 
big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you 
are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV 
tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor 
compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from 
ADS and ATI.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special 
software for running with Windows MCE.  I've run cards that came with MCE 
drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

And those packages do nothing special compared to MCE, it's just another 
choice for the consumer.
I never said it was any better than 3rd party apps, I was refuting the post 
about it not being popular, it is quite popular, with many websites and 
forums dedicated to it.

-- 

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
_________________________________________________________________________________


"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message 
news:e5CdnfHbj4JhWcDanZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>
> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with 
> video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that 
> is terribly unique.
> 

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>>> also available in Vista.
>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>> unique.
> 
>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>> designed to do :-)
> 
> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the 
> market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software.  I picked up 
> a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

I was talking about the interface.

> 
> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your 
> system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any 
> big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you 
> are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.
> 
> One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV 
> tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor 
> compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from 
> ADS and ATI.

Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)

> 
> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special 
> software for running with Windows MCE.  I've run cards that came with MCE 
> drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video input and output 
cards use WDM to communicate and they all do it through the OS. It used 
to be proprietary (15 years ago), it's all standard stuff now. Hell, I 
once hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI input 
card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't conceive of any modern 
capture card NOT providing drivers for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact 
most of the existing ones will be supported already by the OS, just like 
they are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP. Sure, you'll need 
custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality but the basics are already 
supported.

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>>> also available in Vista.
>>>
>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>> unique.
>
>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>> designed to do :-)
>
> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in
> the market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software.
> I picked up a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from
> Amazon for about $60.
>
> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system 
> from
> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it
> creates any big black holes while installed, other than creating a
> lot of I/O when you are recording or playing video, or when you are
> time-shifting.
>
> One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the
> TV tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of
> cross-vendor compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR
> software and cards from ADS and ATI.
>
> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide
> special software for running with Windows MCE.  I've run cards that
> came with MCE drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE
> reduces your options.

However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay extra for a 
third party package?
MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way you could get 
it was with a machine or as an OEM System Builder product, so there's 
no scenario of going out and buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

And none of those third party packages let you view the secured HD 
content on cable--for that Vista is the only game in town.

-- 
-- 
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
news:F0x7j.6750$4q5.5602@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
>> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>> unique.

>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>> designed to do :-)
>>
>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>> to be the best software.  I picked up a pretty
>> functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for
>> about $60.

> I was talking about the interface.

Then we're talking about the same stuff.

>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>> your system from your system, you just uninstall it. So
>> far I haven't found that it creates any big black holes
>> while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when
>> you are recording or playing video, or when you are
>> time-shifting.  One other thing is that the third party software that
>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>> ADS and ATI.
>
> Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)

Exactly. And WDM seems to be pretty solid.

>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards 
>> that came with MCE drivers with other
>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

> I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video
> input and output cards use WDM to communicate and they
> all do it through the OS.

What a concept! ;-)

>  It used to be proprietary (15
> years ago), it's all standard stuff now.

Exactly. This asks the question - why did MCE require all those other 
changes?

> Hell, I once
> hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI
> input card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't
> conceive of any modern capture card NOT providing drivers
> for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact most of the existing
> ones will be supported already by the OS, just like they
> are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP.

Apparently MCE requires more than just WDM drivers, because the packages I 
see that work both stand-alone and with MCE have a special setup program and 
more code that gets installed for MCE.

> Sure, you'll need custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality

There you go.

> but the basics are already supported.

Yes, MCE seems to be based on WDM drivers, but it seems to need more. 

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:uKv$YLAPIHA.4272@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
>> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>
>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>> unique.
>>
>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>> designed to do :-)
>>
>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty functional
>> HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.
>>
>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>> your system from
>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you are
>> recording or playing video, or when you are
>> time-shifting.
>>
>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>> ADS and ATI.

>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay
> extra for a third party package?

The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up an ADS HDTV/video 
capture card on Amazon for like $60-70.  I think it was cheaper than the 
cheapest HDTV card that I could find that would work with MCE, and not by 
just a little.

> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people to 
learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own hardware.

> And none of those third party packages let you view the
> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
> game in town.

On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to have one of 
their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I know of no PC 
accessories that take a card.

I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who are 
actually delivering it nationwide today.

"Glennbo" <vdrumsYourHeadFromYourAss@cox.net> wrote in
message
news:Xns9A037CAA7FFC0BrownShoesDontMakeIt@69.28.173.184
> In news:O4udnRAV0uBZTcPanZ2dnUVZ_tyknZ2d@comcast.com the
> killer robot "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> grabbed
> the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed
> these buttons...
>
>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.
>
> Howzat?

Ooops, I believed too many press releases that came up when I googled MCE.


> http://www.mwave.com/mwave/Skusearch.hmx?scriteria=AA30890

I don't see the dreaded word "OEM".

> I just built an HTPC with Windows XP MCE 2005 on it, and
> it's a legally licensed copy.  I don't use the PVR
> functionality of MCE because I bought Beyond TV, which is
> superior IMO, but I do use some of the other
> functionality of MCE.

Do tell.

>  I do *NOT* use this machine as my
> DAW, and would never in a million year choose MCE for
> serious audio or video work, but for hooking up with my
> HDTV, I've had no compatibility issues or problems.

Beyond TV seems to be head-and-shoulders above the usual 
packaged-with-the-card software. OTOH at least one of the software packages 
that came with one of my HDTV cards looks like a de-featured version of 
Beyond TV. 

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message >
> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people to 
> learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own hardware.

XP MCE 2005 can be purchased at a variety of outlets and has been that way 
for years, no need to download; it costs ~$110.

>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>> game in town.
>
> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to have one 
> of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I know of no PC 
> accessories that take a card.
>
> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who are 
> actually delivering it nationwide today.

There are several system made that have cablecards built in to get direct HD 
through Vista Media Center.
-- 
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida 

"Jaime" <jaimelobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O%23sTaiEPIHA.6036@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message >
>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.
>
> XP MCE 2005 can be purchased at a variety of outlets and
> has been that way for years, no need to download; it
> costs ~$110.
>>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>>> game in town.
>>
>> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD
>> content is to have one of their boxes, or a device that
>> takes one of their cards. I know of no PC accessories
>> that take a card.

>> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no
>> providers who are actually delivering it nationwide
>> today.

> There are several system made that have cablecards built
> in to get direct HD through Vista Media Center.

Here's an example:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070109-8576.html

Looks a lot klugey.

So has anybody hacked either cablecards or their alleged secure connection 
to the PC yet? ;-)

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:uKv$YLAPIHA.4272@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
>>> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>>> unique.
>>>
>>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>>> designed to do :-)
>>>
>>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty functional
>>> HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.
>>>
>>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>>> your system from
>>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you are
>>> recording or playing video, or when you are
>>> time-shifting.
>>>
>>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>>> ADS and ATI.
>
>>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.
>
>> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay
>> extra for a third party package?
>
> The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up an ADS
> HDTV/video capture card on Amazon for like $60-70.  I think it was
> cheaper than the cheapest HDTV card that I could find that would 
> work
> with MCE, and not by just a little.

Which ADS HDTV product doesn't support MCE?

>> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
>> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
>> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
>> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.
>
> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people
> to learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own
> hardware.

Good luck activating it.  If you wanted the System Builder product all 
you had to do was shell out 150 bucks or so to newegg, but it wasn't 
something you'd find on the shelf at CompUSA--you had to go out and 
look for it.

>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>> game in town.
>
> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to 
> have
> one of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I 
> know
> of no PC accessories that take a card.

The technology is called "Cable Card" and several companies are making 
PCs that support it, all using ATI tuners and running Vista.  The 
catch is that you have to buy the tuner and the PC together and they 
have to be certified by Cable Labs as a unit.

You can also access the content from a PC using a networked HDTivo.

> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who
> are actually delivering it nationwide today.

I know of no cable company that is _not_ doing so.  Local stations and 
a few other channels are generally unscrambled QAM, but all the 
premium channels are scrambled in one manner or another.  In some 
cases they'll show the first ten minutes on one frequency and then 
switch to another, in others the signal can't be deciphered by QAM 
hardware at all.

-- 
-- 
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:u0RfTfZPIHA.3556@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:uKv$YLAPIHA.4272@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "Romeo Rondeau" <eveyone@ease.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:FAn7j.77129$YL5.8985@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net
>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>>> "David B." <brooks.dj@nomail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uO0Gx22OIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
>>>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>>>> unique.
>>>>
>>>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>>>> designed to do :-)
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>>>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>>>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty
>>>> functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for
>>>> about $60.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>>>> your system from
>>>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>>>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>>>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
>>>> are recording or playing video, or when you are
>>>> time-shifting.
>>
>>>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>>>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems
>>>> to have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility.
>>>> For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and
>>>> cards from ADS and ATI.

>>>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>>>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>>>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>>>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

>>> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why
>>> pay extra for a third party package?

The point is that MCE doesn't come bundled with lots of machines.

>> The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up
>> an ADS HDTV/video capture card on Amazon for like
>> $60-70.  I think it was cheaper than the cheapest HDTV
>> card that I could find that would work
>> with MCE, and not by just a little.

> Which ADS HDTV product doesn't support MCE?

I don't know offhand, but there were some products that I saw at Micro 
Center that did not say that they supported MCE. The ADS card I have 
supports MCE, but you have to run a separate setup program.

>>> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
>>> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
>>> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
>>> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.

> Good luck activating it.  If you wanted the System
> Builder product all you had to do was shell out 150 bucks
> or so to newegg, but it wasn't something you'd find on
> the shelf at CompUSA--you had to go out and look for it.

Not to mention that Newegg had to hang all the usual OEM strings on every 
purchase.

>>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>>> game in town.

>> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD
>> content is to have
>> one of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their
>> cards. I know
>> of no PC accessories that take a card.

> The technology is called "Cable Card" and several
> companies are making PCs that support it, all using ATI
> tuners and running Vista.

I've seen the ATI box, which appears to be USB-connected. I've got some 
concerns about running HiDef video over a USB connection.

>  The catch is that you have to
> buy the tuner and the PC together and they have to be
> certified by Cable Labs as a unit.

I wouldn't stake my life on that holding together over the long haul.

> You can also access the content from a PC using a
> networked HDTivo.

That could be awkward.

>> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no
>> providers who are actually delivering it nationwide
>> today.

> I know of no cable company that is _not_ doing so.

AFAIK Comcast is only providing HDTV around here using the means I described 
above.

>  Local
> stations and a few other channels are generally
> unscrambled QAM, but all the premium channels are
> scrambled in one manner or another.

That makes sense, but its awkward.

>  In some cases
> they'll show the first ten minutes on one frequency and
> then switch to another, in others the signal can't be
> deciphered by QAM hardware at all.

Hopefully, they'll eventually provide all content on the same basis they 
provide NTSC channels today.

Scramble the premium  like HBO, and let people tune in their own channels 
for content like Speed, TBS, History, A&E, Discovery, etc.

Providing an open implementation of the infrastructure that supports Cable 
Card would be a good move.

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:U7ednVvBj7mKRMLanZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com

> "Jaime" <jaimelobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:O%23sTaiEPIHA.6036@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl

>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message >
>>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>>> to build their own hardware.

>> XP MCE 2005 can be purchased at a variety of outlets and
>> has been that way for years, no need to download; it
>> costs ~$110.


I guess the commoditzation of MCE-type software might have taken another 
step.

I loaded an OEM copy of Nero 7, and ended up with an icon on my desktop that 
I didn't recognize. When I clicked through it a bit, it ended up running out 
and recognizing the TV card and scanning for channels.

Hey, all I wanted to do is burn some discs!