🚀 go-pugleaf

Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:

>	(1) The differences cannot be primarily genetic since Kenyans
>from many different tribes have excelled internationally.  Richard Chelimo
>is no more closely related to Paul Ereng or Yobes Ondieki than he is 
>to most American blacks.

Really? I had read that the top Kenyan runners came predominantly from two
particular tribes located in the Rift Valley region. Sorry, I don't recall
the source nor the details off the top of my head...

>	(2) Kenyans train exceptionally hard, in terms of both mileage
>and intensity.  They seem to be able to train above the level at which 
>most Americans would get hurt.

Don't they also tend to live and/or train at medium altitude -- say 6000 ft.
or so? If so, I'd guess that that may also be a big factor in their success.
Note too the location where the top Mexican runners train -- the "Forest of
Champions" outside Mexico City at substantial altitude.

>	Sorry for the length of this post.

Not at all. Your experience is quite interesting.

>	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

Mark Sandrock
-- 
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>From: Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu
>
>	I am (or at least was!) a US distance runner.  I've also lived
>in Kenya about 5 out of the last 15 years, during which time I competed
>regularly in road races, on the track, and in cross country.  Some 
>observations based on this experience:
> ... etc ...

Congratulations, you discovered through personal experience exactly what took
tens of thousands of dollars for the Swedish Olympic team to figure out :-}

There was an article in Running Research News a few months ago about some
Swedish researchers who took several of their runners to Kenya to compete
against the locals and then took several Kenyans to Sweden for further
research.

Bottom line: Nothing genetically special about them. It seems distance running
is Kenya's national sport and gets all the best athletes. You should have told
them and saved Swedish taxpayers some money.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Jack Berkery, Computer Scientist, GE Research, Schenectady NY
           berkery@crd.ge.com  "The Common Sense Coach" 

In article <1jp38rINN9fb@savoy.cc.williams.edu>, Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
> 	I am (or at least was!) a US distance runner.  I've also lived
> in Kenya about 5 out of the last 15 years, during which time I competed
> regularly in road races, on the track, and in cross country.  Some 
> observations based on this experience:
> 

{First three interesting observations deleted}
 
> 	(4) Running has become to young Kenyans what basketball is to
> inner-city Americans.  A large number of kids dream of becoming great
> runners; that is the only way for many of them ever to make more than
> $2000 per year.  
> 
I think this is a major difference between the U.S. and Kenya.  American
sports (baseball, football, basketball) require short explosive action,
so mainly athletes with these skills get any recognition (and at an early
age, I think this is important.)  Also, a frightening number of high
school distance running coaches have little or no experience.  And
cross-country/ track teams are some of the first things dropped when
schools face buget cuts.  I think the U.S. suffers a lot from poor
coaching and little recognition, especially at the important early stages.

> 	So what can be done to improve the pitiful state of US distance
> running?  Some ideas:
>
{first idea deleted}

> 	As for (3): In order to be the best in the world it is necessary
> to train with and frequently compete against the almost-best in the
> world.  What distance talent we have is spread much too thin in this
> country.  I would encourage any 22-yr old American who wants to compete
> at this level to go live in Kenya for a couple of years.  The Armed 
> Forces team is delighted to have others join them in training.
> 

Another difference between the U.S. and Kenya is that U.S. distance runners
tend to train alone or in small groups.  This may be that the U.S. government/
Olympic committee has no central training facility, while Kenya seems
content with supporting their distance runners through there Armed forces.

> 	Finally, Americans have to think higher.  Todd Williams is a fine
> runner, but he seemed satisfied to make the final and come in 10th 
> at the Olympics (he only came in 10th because Kenya couldn't send the
> next 20 runners who would have beaten him), as he was looking ahead to 
> the future.  He seemed to forget that Chelimo and Kiptanui are 2 years
> younger than he is!

Sorry, but I have to object to this, especially since it's insulting to
Williams.  From what I've read, Todd Williams definitely is seeking a
higher level.  Happy about his Olympics, yes but not satisfied.
> 
> 	Sorry for the length of this post.

You should be! It was too short!
> 
> 	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

                       -dp

In article <1jp38rINN9fb@savoy.cc.williams.edu> Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>	   (1) The differences cannot be primarily genetic since Kenyans
>   from many different tribes have excelled internationally.  Richard Chelimo
>   is no more closely related to Paul Ereng or Yobes Ondieki than he is 
>   to most American blacks.

I  don't really  follow  this. Did not most American slaves  come from
Western  Africa? This is  like saying  that I  am  not  more genetical
related to a Swede than to a Greek.

I  have often wondered if it is only a  coincidence that while Eastern
Africans  are  good at  long  distances,  both  Western  Africans  and
American Blacks are good at shorter distances.  I am not claiming that
the reason for this  is genetic. It could also be cultural reasons for
this.


--
Oystein Groevlen 
Division of Computer Systems and Telematics
The Norwegian Institute of Technology
The University of Trondheim
Email: oysteing@idt.unit.no

In article <1jp38rINN9fb@savoy.cc.williams.edu> Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>	   (1) The differences cannot be primarily genetic since Kenyans
>   from many different tribes have excelled internationally.  Richard Chelimo
>   is no more closely related to Paul Ereng or Yobes Ondieki than he is 
>   to most American blacks.

I  don't really  follow  this. Did not most American slaves  come from
Western  Africa? This is  like saying  that I  am  not  more genetical
related to a Swede than to a Greek.

I have often  wondered if it is  only a coincidence that while Eastern
Africans  are  good at  long  distances,  both  Western  Africans  and
American Blacks are good at shorter distances.  I am not claiming that
the reason for  this is genetical. It could also  be cultural  reasons
for this.
--
Oystein Groevlen 
Division of Computer Systems and Telematics
The Norwegian Institute of Technology
The University of Trondheim
Email: oysteing@idt.unit.no

In article <1993Jan23.113610.24741@kth.se> TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE writes:
[a bunch of stuff by several people on why Kenyans run fast deleted]
>
> I believe in the "tradition".. for example, in Finland there's a tradition
>to be best at Javelin, and it gets most attention, most athletes and so on.
>As it is tradition in Kenya to run long distances, as it is tradition in
>the US for blacks to train sprint. Swedish tradition is hockey. Norway has
>nordic skiing. These are just examples, I know some nations are best at more
>than sport..
> I think blaming the fact that some nation is outstanding in some event on
>genetics is to stick your head into the ground..

I would disagree here, in emphasis at least.
Read the article in RW a few months back titled
"white men can't run."  It gives a biomechanical basis for the different
performances of (1)white (2)west african blacks and (3)east/north
african blacks.  The facts presented in that article are somewhat
scientific and one can conclude from them that there definitely is a
biomechanical (and, thus, genetic) difference between these three people
groups athletically.  The point that is still not settled AT ALL is the
EXTENT that this affects performance.  Maybe it only makes a small
difference compared to culture, national emphasis, oportunity, etc. and
maybe not.

In article <1jsfl1INNfhj@savoy.cc.williams.edu> Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:

>   The following is my understanding -- please correct me if I am
>wrong:
	   Most Africans, including virtually all West Africans are Bantu 
>peoples.  Kalenjins, the tribal group to which Chelimo, Rono, Boit, 
>Keino, Kiptanui, et al belong, is Bantu, and thus they are (distantly)
>related to the Bantu people of West Africa (and thus to most American
>blacks).  The Luo and Turkana, to which Ondieki and Ereng belong, 
>respectively, are not Bantu, and thus the Kalenjins are, if anything, 
>more closely related to the West Africans than Ondieki and Ereng.

>Waiting for corrections . . .

Happy to oblige.  I think this is complete hogwash:

1) The designation "Bantu", "Nilotic", etc. is most accurate when
   applied to language groups, not genetic types.  By this reasoning
   because an Asian-American speaks English they must be genetically
   close to Germans because English is a germanic language ;-)  Or,
   to be more germaine, one wouldn't want to identify everyone whom
   spoke Swahili as Swahili would one?

2) Anyone whom is unaware of the considerable interbreeding of
   different tribal groups in Kenya must be equally unaware of East
   African history.  Somehow I suspect this is the case for Runner's
   World ;-). Because westerner's detailed knowledge of these
   people's is recent, we tend to see them as static groups.  This
   is far from the case, it is an enormously dynamic region with much
   cultural and physical movement and cross-pollenation.

3) The genetic argument for athletic performance is old, but quite weak.
   At this point there is an enormous body of evidence which suggests that
   athletic performance has no racial component.  I would point out
   that the genetic variation between individuals in one of these groups is
   statistically as great as the variation between individuals of different
   groups.

4) Their argument is inherently racist.It is racist because we wouldn't even
   be having this discussion if the athletes involved were not African.
   If the Germans had won a bunch of marathons in a row, we wouldn't
   be talking about how the Germans are genetically superior runners
   to the French, we would be talking about how good the German's training
   program was.  Yet there is an equal genetic distance between the
   French and the Germans as between the East Africans and West Africans.

In my estimation, the fundamental reason the Kenyans are good runners
is economic. Back me up.  You mentioned you had been to Kenya.  Think
for a moment what it would do to a Kenyan's life to win a western
marathon with the associated prize money.  Think about the other life
paths open to a Kenyan or Tanzanian.  Is it any wonder the most
dedicated and talented of them is willing to train so hard?  And yes,
I think altitude, running surface and good coaching make a difference
as well.  I know that the weeks I spent about 10,000 feet on Mount
Kenya changed my physiology forever.

Kwahari,
fletcher
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 * BBN Software Products
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In article <OYSTEING.93Jan23113055@garm.idt.unit.no> oysteing@garm.idt.unit.no (Oystein Groevlen) writes:
> Did not most American slaves  come from
>Western  Africa? This is  like saying  that I  am  not  more genetical
>related to a Swede than to a Greek.
>
>I  have often wondered if it is only a  coincidence that while Eastern
>Africans  are  good at  long  distances,  both  Western  Africans  and
>American Blacks are good at shorter distances.  I am not claiming that
>the reason for this  is genetic. It could also be cultural reasons for
>this.
>

	The following is my understanding -- please correct me if I am
wrong:
	Most Africans, including virtually all West Africans are Bantu 
peoples.  Kalenjins, the tribal group to which Chelimo, Rono, Boit, 
Keino, Kiptanui, et al belong, is Bantu, and thus they are (distantly)
related to the Bantu people of West Africa (and thus to most American
blacks).  The Luo and Turkana, to which Ondieki and Ereng belong, 
respectively, are not Bantu, and thus the Kalenjins are, if anything, 
more closely related to the West Africans than Ondieki and Ereng.

	Waiting for corrections . . .

	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

In <15618.2b601883@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> dwp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>In article <1jp38rINN9fb@savoy.cc.williams.edu>, Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>>      I am (or at least was!) a US distance runner.  I've also lived
>> in Kenya about 5 out of the last 15 years, during which time I competed
>> regularly in road races, on the track, and in cross country.  Some
>> observations based on this experience:
>>
>
>{First three interesting observations deleted}
>
>>      (4) Running has become to young Kenyans what basketball is to
>> inner-city Americans.  A large number of kids dream of becoming great
>> runners; that is the only way for many of them ever to make more than
>> $2000 per year.
>>
>I think this is a major difference between the U.S. and Kenya.  American
>sports (baseball, football, basketball) require short explosive action,
>so mainly athletes with these skills get any recognition (and at an early
>age, I think this is important.)  Also, a frightening number of high
>school distance running coaches have little or no experience.  And
>cross-country/ track teams are some of the first things dropped when
>schools face buget cuts.  I think the U.S. suffers a lot from poor
>coaching and little recognition, especially at the important early stages.
>
>>      So what can be done to improve the pitiful state of US distance
>> running?  Some ideas:
>>
>{first idea deleted}
>
>>      As for (3): In order to be the best in the world it is necessary
>> to train with and frequently compete against the almost-best in the
>> world.  What distance talent we have is spread much too thin in this
>> country.  I would encourage any 22-yr old American who wants to compete
>> at this level to go live in Kenya for a couple of years.  The Armed
>> Forces team is delighted to have others join them in training.
>>
>
>Another difference between the U.S. and Kenya is that U.S. distance runners
>tend to train alone or in small groups.  This may be that the U.S. government/
>Olympic committee has no central training facility, while Kenya seems
>content with supporting their distance runners through there Armed forces.
>
>>      Finally, Americans have to think higher.  Todd Williams is a fine
>> runner, but he seemed satisfied to make the final and come in 10th
>> at the Olympics (he only came in 10th because Kenya couldn't send the
>> next 20 runners who would have beaten him), as he was looking ahead to
>> the future.  He seemed to forget that Chelimo and Kiptanui are 2 years
>> younger than he is!
>
I have raced Todd Williams several times while I was running at Mississippi
Stat Univ.  Todd went the the University of Tennessee and kicked my butt
on a regular basis.  If anyone suggests that Todd is "satisfied" I suggest
they step on the track and see his fury themselves.

Also, FEW people actually know the difficulties is takes to get to the
Olympic level.  Please don't persecute folks for getting 10th at the
Olympics.




>Sorry, but I have to object to this, especially since it's insulting to
>Williams.  From what I've read, Todd Williams definitely is seeking a
>higher level.  Happy about his Olympics, yes but not satisfied.

Agreed.
>>
>>      Sorry for the length of this post.

>
>You should be! It was too short!
>>
>>      Coty Pinckney                   Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu
>
>                       -dp


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In article <1993Jan23.115326.3250@mic.ucla.edu>, rush@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Brian Rush ) writes:

>I would disagree here, in emphasis at least.
>Read the article in RW a few months back titled
>"white men can't run."  It gives a biomechanical basis for the different
>performances of (1)white (2)west african blacks and (3)east/north
>african blacks.  The facts presented in that article are somewhat
>scientific and one can conclude from them that there definitely is a
>biomechanical (and, thus, genetic) difference between these three people
>groups athletically.  The point that is still not settled AT ALL is the
>EXTENT that this affects performance.  Maybe it only makes a small
>difference compared to culture, national emphasis, oportunity, etc. and
>maybe not.

 yeah, well, is Sebastian Coe black or white? Khalid Skah? Dieter Bauhman?
Pietro Minnea? I just mean, where do you draw the line? 5 generations back
directly from Afrika and then no outter mix at all? I can agree with the
genetics so far that people with generations back living up in the mountains
will be adapted to it, and probably have an easier time picking up the
oxygen, and if it happens to be Afrikans.. pure coincident.. so in a sense
I guess I agree with that article, and we're splitting hair...
 It would like saying Norwegians are genetically benefitted to perform well
in Nordic Skiing..
---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my OWN,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden (Northern Europe)

 
 
> 3) The genetic argument for athletic performance is old, but quite weak.
>    At this point there is an enormous body of evidence which suggests that
>    athletic performance has no racial component.  I would point out
>    that the genetic variation between individuals in one of these groups is
>    statistically as great as the variation between individuals of different
>    groups.


 I have read the Runners World article and was surprised by several of their
conclusions.  However I would like very much to see this 'enormous body 
of evicdence' which states that there is no racial component.

 
> 4) Their argument is inherently racist.It is racist because we wouldn't even
>    be having this discussion if the athletes involved were not African.

	This is probably not true. Just to ask  the Question 'Are there
differences between groups of humans?' is not racist although it certainly is
not politically correct.  The observation that certain groups are, on the
average, taller, shorter, heavier, and perhaps faster, is also not racist.
Trying to answer why this might be, whether cultural or biological is also 
not racist, though perhaps the interpretaion of the answers could lead into 
racism.  The answers themselves are just right or wrong.

>  Yet there is an equal genetic distance between the
>  French and the Germans as between the East Africans and West Africans.

 If this is true it is very interesting. Runners World certainly missed here!



Other points that The Article seemed to miss:

	1) that almost all the top sprinters from the world for the last 15
	 years come from or train in the sunbelt states of the US (CA,Texas,etc)
	 (this includes many forgein runners). In other words there seems to be
	 an environmental factor at work here.
 
	2) I think there have been less than 5 whites ever to run under 10.0
	  for 100m (if any).  And I've heven't seen any whites run under
	  44.2 for 400m
	
	3) What about asian runners???

	4) One thing I have noticed watching world class runners the last 
	 several years is that most have a very pronounced curvature in their
	 backs.  I don't mean big buttocks,  but a curvature that thrusts
	the chest forward and hips back, it doesn't seem to matter how
	muscular the person is.  This crosses all racial/cultural groups 
	and is true for both sexes.  (It's sort of like the new dynamic 
	way they've depicted 2-legged dinosaurs, with the hips high and
	the chest forward).  Is this curvature a prerequist to being a top
	runner or do the top runners develop the curvature.  Or is the
	curvature irrelavant, and I'm just babbling?

These are just some questions.  And observations.
 

In article <1k0strINNnq7@savoy.cc.williams.edu> Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>In article <FKITTRED.93Jan23200913@spchp13.BBN.COM> fkittred@spchp13.BBN.COM (Fletcher Kittredge) writes:
>> I think this is complete hogwash:
>(Much has been deleted from above)

	   We could continue the discussion of (1) and (2) above on 
>soc.culture.african.

Right, like I would want to wade through several hundred postings on
female circumcision and gays in Africa.  No thanks.
> If you'll reread my original post, you will see
>that in terms of running, our points are identical (except for (4) 
>above, with which I disagree): genetics plays at most a small role 
>in explaining the difference between Kenyan and American distance
>runners, and the possibility of fame and fortune from becoming a 
>world-class runner engenders tremendous efforts by young Kenyans.

I believe I made it very clear in my posting that I mostly agreed with
you and directed my criticism with Runner's World.

	   No one has yet replied to my question about the physical 
>benefits of spending childhood barefoot.  Am I completely off the
>wall?

I have no opinion (other than it is more likely than a genetic
explanation!), but would like to add the additional information that
it is running barefoot on dirt paths and roads.

regards,
fletcher
--
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 * BBN Software Products
 * 150 CambridgePark Dr,  Cambridge, MA. 02140
 * 617-USE-FINK  /  fkittred@bbn.com  /  fkittred@das.harvard.edu
 */

In article <1993Jan24.124407.1@iowa.physics.uiowa.edu>, theisen@iowa.physics.uiowa.edu writes:

>Other points that The Article seemed to miss:

>	2) I think there have been less than 5 whites ever to run under 10.0
>	  for 100m (if any).  And I've heven't seen any whites run under
>	  44.2 for 400m

 I'd like to see the background of these sprinters.. I think that would be
very important. How many of them had ultra-rich parents? How many of them
come from a ghetto? I still believe in the tradition..

>	3) What about asian runners???

 this is interesting.. Laos came in last on 12.02 on 100m during the Olympics.

>	4) One thing I have noticed watching world class runners the last 
>	 several years is that most have a very pronounced curvature in their
>	 backs.  I don't mean big buttocks,  but a curvature that thrusts
>	the chest forward and hips back, it doesn't seem to matter how
>	muscular the person is.

 this could be explained by the training, I think. When you train your hip-
flexors they pull your lower back forward, and thus you get a curved back..
The buttocks grow, cos they're well-used, so to speak, and it adds to the
effect..




---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my OWN,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden (Northern Europe)

In article <C1C3ux.MCn@austin.ibm.com> gthome@bulldogs.austin.ibm.com writes:
>I have raced Todd Williams several times while I was running at Mississippi
>Stat Univ.  Todd went the the University of Tennessee and kicked my butt
>on a regular basis.  If anyone suggests that Todd is "satisfied" I suggest
>they step on the track and see his fury themselves.
>
>Also, FEW people actually know the difficulties is takes to get to the
>Olympic level.  Please don't persecute folks for getting 10th at the
>Olympics.

	Apologies if my original post implied anything negative about
Todd Williams.  As mentioned in that post, he is a fine runner, now
the best at 10k in the U.S.  This is a considerable accomplishment.
My point was more a question about American distance runners in 
general: Why do young Americans go to the Olympics hoping to get
international experience that will pay off in the years ahead, while
young Kenyans go to the Olympics expecting to whip the field?  

	Once again, sorry; the point would have been better made
without mentioning anyone's name.

	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

In article <FKITTRED.93Jan23200913@spchp13.BBN.COM> fkittred@spchp13.BBN.COM (Fletcher Kittredge) writes:

> I think this is complete hogwash:
>
>1) The designation "Bantu", "Nilotic", etc. is most accurate when
>   applied to language groups, not genetic types. 
>
>2) the considerable interbreeding of
>   different tribal groups in Kenya 
>
>3) The genetic argument for athletic performance is old, but quite weak.
>   
>
>4) Their argument is inherently racist.
>
>In my estimation, the fundamental reason the Kenyans are good runners
>is economic. 

(Much has been deleted from above)

	We could continue the discussion of (1) and (2) above on 
soc.culture.african.  If you'll reread my original post, you will see
that in terms of running, our points are identical (except for (4) 
above, with which I disagree): genetics plays at most a small role 
in explaining the difference between Kenyan and American distance
runners, and the possibility of fame and fortune from becoming a 
world-class runner engenders tremendous efforts by young Kenyans.

	No one has yet replied to my question about the physical 
benefits of spending childhood barefoot.  Am I completely off the
wall?

	Waiting to get shot down again . . . 
>
>Kwahari,
>fletcher

Kwa heri, na labda tutaonana baadaye.

	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

In article <1k0strINNnq7@savoy.cc.williams.edu>, Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:

>	No one has yet replied to my question about the physical 
>benefits of spending childhood barefoot.  Am I completely off the
>wall?

 okay, I'll bite.. again...
 it is believed that if you're very active when you're a little kid your
body will get more tolerant to stress. The kids in Kenya run all their life
from they're small kids, so their bodies are very well adapted to stress,
and therefore they can train harder, while most people in the western world
sit and get weak, go everywhere by car, and so on...
 As for running bare-foot, I've only read an article in Runner's World that
it's bad for your feet to run with shoes... 




---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my OWN,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden (Northern Europe)

In article <1993Jan25.150516.21970@kth.se> TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE writes:
>In article <1k0strINNnq7@savoy.cc.williams.edu>, Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>
>>	No one has yet replied to my question about the physical 
>>benefits of spending childhood barefoot.  Am I completely off the
>>wall?
>
> okay, I'll bite.. again...
> it is believed that if you're very active when you're a little kid your
>body will get more tolerant to stress. The kids in Kenya run all their life
>from they're small kids, so their bodies are very well adapted to stress,
>and therefore they can train harder, while most people in the western world
>sit and get weak, go everywhere by car, and so on...
> As for running bare-foot, I've only read an article in Runner's World that
>it's bad for your feet to run with shoes... 
>
>
I guess I have to agree with you. The current world record holder Ethiopian 
'Belaynhe Densimo' have 2:06:50 in Amesterdam 1988. When he came back home, 
Ethiopia, He came with a huge money and a new car, after that if I correctly 
remember he did it once at 2:08:xx. Now it has already been 4 years since he 
got the car, and  I don't even think of him doing it at 2:20. I'm an Ethiopian 
and I know about 'Belaynhe' that is why I commented...

BTW Aren't the Ethiopians better runners than the Kenyans? I'm surprised and 
actually disappointed no body mentioned about us. At least I remember one 
episode where Ethiopians and Kenyans compete (I think it was in Kenya)
all 1st, 2nd and 3rd ranks were taken by Ethiopians. But that does not mean 
that the Kenyans are not good and I don't mean that either, I am saying 
Ethiopians are very good too. I hope you all remember the bare feet Marathon
winner 'Abebe Bekila' of Ethiopia. Did You?
I love Ethiopia!!!
Have a good day.

In article <1993Jan26.052826.25334@math.ucla.edu> getachew@yosemite.math.ucla.edu (getachew hagos) writes:

>BTW Aren't the Ethiopians better runners than the Kenyans? I'm surprised and 
>actually disappointed no body mentioned about us.

	Certainly the history of Ethiopian marathoning is more 
illustrious than Kenyan marathoning, at least until Wakiihuru came
on the scene.  My recollection is that 10-15 years ago the 
Ethiopians were dominating the World Cross Country championships the
way the Kenyans are now.  On the track, the overall performance of
Kenyans has always been somewhat stronger than that of the Ethiopians
(but the Ethiopian record is much stronger than the American!).

	Coty Pinckney			Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu

In <1993Jan26.052826.25334@math.ucla.edu> getachew@yosemite.math.ucla.edu (getachew hagos) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.150516.21970@kth.se> TordM@VanA.PhySto.SE writes:
>>In article <1k0strINNnq7@savoy.cc.williams.edu>, Thomas.C.Pinckney@williams.edu writes:
>>
>>>     No one has yet replied to my question about the physical
>>>benefits of spending childhood barefoot.  Am I completely off the
>>>wall?
>>
>> okay, I'll bite.. again...
>> it is believed that if you're very active when you're a little kid your
>>body will get more tolerant to stress. The kids in Kenya run all their life
>>from they're small kids, so their bodies are very well adapted to stress,
>>and therefore they can train harder, while most people in the western world
>>sit and get weak, go everywhere by car, and so on...
>> As for running bare-foot, I've only read an article in Runner's World that
>>it's bad for your feet to run with shoes...
>>
Removed lines about Ethiopia vs. Kenyan runners..

The real advantage to running around barefoot is strength.  Living daily
without shoes would help balance and strength of the athlete.  Many runners
in Great Britain actually train barefoot on sand tracks to reap the
benefits of having strong feet/calves.  It is very important to have
strong feet/calves to maintain an active footplant over long distances.

What I mean by active footplant is the forefoot hits the ground first,
not the heel.  When your heel hits the ground first you are effectively
'braking', and slowing yourself down.  If your foot lands underneath you
and your forefoot hits first, you do not slow down and can immediately
push off into your next stride.

If you are wondering about what I'm saying get a tape of Seb Coe/Steve Cram/
Steve Ovett/Carl Lewis/Linford Christie and watch where their foot actually
hits the ground at what part of their foot hits first.

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gthome@bulldogs.austin.ibm.com writes:

>If you are wondering about what I'm saying get a tape of Seb Coe/Steve Cram/
>Steve Ovett/Carl Lewis/Linford Christie and watch where their foot actually
>hits the ground at what part of their foot hits first.

The only name familiar to me is Carl Lewis. My question is then, are all
these people sprinters? or short distance runners? I recall reading that
for long distance runner landing on the heel is the standard.

Javier.