🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:37:52 -0500, John Sessoms <no.one@no.where>
wrote:
> Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> 
> I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> a competent in house support staff.

And price range is......?

I checked here recently (Lou, Ky) at DSLR, and they listed 15 DSL ISPs.
I have no idea if that is accurate, and am somewhat skeptical. Prices
all over the place. All were BST partners. I guess Covad pulled out of
here. They had over 10 ISPs listed here at one time. I think to get what
you want, be prepared to pay more. Maybe a lot. That is the trade off.
To be actually guaranteed anything better than 'best effort' will be
significantly more. Well into three figures for sure. If you think $50
is going to get anything significantly better, its just not.

While checking this, DSLR listed a BST 1500/384 service for here. But no
ISPs. Anybody here of that?

-- 
Hal Burgiss
 

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:44:44 GMT, Hal Burgiss <hal@burgiss.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:37:52 -0500, John Sessoms <no.one@no.where>
>wrote:
>> Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
>> Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
>> 
>> I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
>> a competent in house support staff.
>
>And price range is......?
>
>I checked here recently (Lou, Ky) at DSLR, and they listed 15 DSL ISPs.
>I have no idea if that is accurate, and am somewhat skeptical. Prices
>all over the place. All were BST partners. I guess Covad pulled out of
>here. They had over 10 ISPs listed here at one time. I think to get what
>you want, be prepared to pay more. Maybe a lot. That is the trade off.
>To be actually guaranteed anything better than 'best effort' will be
>significantly more. Well into three figures for sure. If you think $50
>is going to get anything significantly better, its just not.

Giant. One bridged static IP, no mail, no news, no problems, $70/month. They
show available in Raleigh, NC. Run your own servers.

>While checking this, DSLR listed a BST 1500/384 service for here. But no
>ISPs. Anybody here of that?

That would probably be a Covad partner. When I looked at SpeakEasy, they were
1500/384.

On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:05:25 -0500, Michael Austin
<maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:

>The other problem is getting past just-out-of-college-degreed HR
>personnel who do not know the value of certification vs. experience. 
>Any manager worth his salt would take an experienced person over
>certification any day.  The cert has the paper, but the experienced
>person will keep him out of trouble.  (except that usually the
>experience guy (meaning older) usually needs a higher rate) 
>
>First of all I am a DBA, And what really gets me is that, companies want
>cheap.  Yea, that's it. Let's give all of our company data to a bunch of
>kids to maintain... never mind they have never done it before, because
>they are cheap.
>
><YELL volume=REALLY LOUD>
>YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!!!
></YELL>
>
>Can't tell that I have been dealing with this lately can you??? :)
>
>Funny story from a company that made Fiber-optic junction boxes... 
>
>A worker that applied for a new milling-machine position had the 24yr HR
>person tell this guy that has been working precision milling machines
>(down to micron-level measurements) for over 15 years, that because he
>only has a high school diploma doesn't have the math skills for the new
>position.  The Supervisor told the snot-nosed twerp that he would take
>this guy over any college-degreed person any day of the week and he had
>better not hear this HR person ever tell his experienced people that
>because they don't have a piece of paper does not mean they cannot do
>the job.

Agreed.  A few years back, I was the MIS director for a large
pharmaceutical wholesale company and on several occasions hired
programmers through an employment agency.  When the agency asked about
my educational requirements, I said I didn't have any, and this
usually surprised them.  I explained that 5 or 10 years programming
experience was significantly more important to me than where they went
to school.  If a candidate could demonstrate good programming skills,
then I didn't care if they had never graduated from high school, much
less college.

John....

I just fell across this site. May be a possibility for you.

I know absolutely nothing about them, except what I read,
however, if single or static IPs are necessary, they list all the
pricing and bandwidth.

Don't shoot the messenger....

burris

John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> 
> I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> a competent in house support staff.
> 
> --
> I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> blame!
> 
>                 John Sessoms

I am not advocating staying with or dropping BSIS, just to throw in
something to think about... where ever you are located your DSL provider
will always be one step removed from your primary telco.

Example:
BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
(eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
you want via that entire connection.  

In otherwords, if you get slow response from the primary telco, you will
get even worse response from the upstream provider.  And they may have
not be any better at supporting their network than BSIS does.  

I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks reading other  providers
"complaint" NGs and they sound a lot like what has been stated in this
group... This ISP <pick your favorite synonym for "stinks"> including
poor NG and Email maintenance, speed issues etc. etc.. etc...

Warning:   The following will probably offend some. Others will laugh
and others may cry.  Read at your own risk.
<SOAPBOX>

I am going to step out on a limb here... For the most part the ISP
business has improved over the last 8-10 years when this whole WWW
became "consumer available".  While the bandwidth building boom as all
but stagnated, there are still areas that need a LOT of improvement. 
Getting companies to expand their networks to the "ruaral" areas for a
very small ROI, is difficult.  With the current downturn in the economy,
the first thing to go when you lose your job is the "luxuries" like
email, and wirless phones etc... companies are being forced to hire kids
right out of college, pay them next to nothing and yet the consumer
expect "world-class" support.  Most of these kids are barely out diapers
that are running a lot of these shops.  A number of these kids (18-24)
are very good and they have learned their trade well, but for every
really good troubleshooter on staff, you will have many, many more who
are inexperienced and lazy and unwilling to figure it out.

Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
don't.  

The whole point of this speech is, at this point in time, given the
above factors (kids running the networks, companies pay kids to read
queue cards etc...), you may have a very good experience with your ISP
or you won't. And "you pays your money and you takes your chances".
</SOAPBOX>

Good luck.
-- 
Michael Austin
First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.com
Sr. Consultant

John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> 
> I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> a competent in house support staff.
> 
> --
> I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> blame!
> 
>                 John Sessoms

burris wrote:
> 
> John....
> 
> I just fell across this site. May be a possibility for you.
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about them, except what I read,
> however, if single or static IPs are necessary, they list all the
> pricing and bandwidth.
> 
> Don't shoot the messenger....

Ok, but did you forget something?  Like what site?


 
> John Sessoms wrote:
> >
> > Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> > Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> >
> > I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> > a competent in house support staff.


--
I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
blame!

		John Sessoms

Michael Austin wrote:
> 
> I am not advocating staying with or dropping BSIS, just to throw in
> something to think about... where ever you are located your DSL provider
> will always be one step removed from your primary telco.
> 
> Example:
> BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
> (eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
> will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
> into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
> you want via that entire connection.
> 
> In otherwords, if you get slow response from the primary telco, you will
> get even worse response from the upstream provider.  And they may have
> not be any better at supporting their network than BSIS does.
> 

BSIS hasn't been "slow". That's about the only thing that is working.

It's all the problems with newsgroups, email outages, outsourcing
support to some trojan-ware site, their general non-responsiveness
when problems arise and/or the nonsensical, absurdly demonstrably
false responses when they do deign to respond, and their apparent
non-concern regarding SPAM.

I could probably live with some of the problems if I could only get a
straight answer out of them once in a while, instead of being jerked
around.




--
I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
blame!

		John Sessoms

> BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
> (eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
> will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
> into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
> you want via that entire connection.
> 
> In otherwords, if you get slow response from the primary telco, you will
> get even worse response from the upstream provider.  And they may have
> not be any better at supporting their network than BSIS does.

Sorry, but no. If you go with someone who uses Covad then your wire
pair will terminate in the CO in a Covad owned DSLAM. It will be in a
rack owned by Covad sitting in an area rented by Covad from the local
phone company. And there are some others. Not as many as 18 months ago
but there are others.

On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:51:58 -0500, Michael Austin
<maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:

>I am not advocating staying with or dropping BSIS, just to throw in
>something to think about... where ever you are located your DSL provider
>will always be one step removed from your primary telco.
>
>Example:
>BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
>(eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
>will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
>into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
>you want via that entire connection.  


NOT necessarily true - actually you'll use BS's pair, but connect to
Earthlinks's DSLAM.  All wiring done at the frame.  This is why you
(can) keep BellSouth as you phone company and use someone else for
ADSL.  
 Now, if you're on a remote DSLAM, it may be the way you described.

jb

You bet I did....sorry..

http://www.dslx.net/home.htm

burris



John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> burris wrote:
> >
> > John....
> >
> > I just fell across this site. May be a possibility for you.
> >
> > I know absolutely nothing about them, except what I read,
> > however, if single or static IPs are necessary, they list all the
> > pricing and bandwidth.
> >
> > Don't shoot the messenger....
> 
> Ok, but did you forget something?  Like what site?
> 
> 
> > John Sessoms wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> > > Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> > >
> > > I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> > > a competent in house support staff.
> 
> --
> I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> blame!
> 
>                 John Sessoms

In article <3C635376.31AEB02B@no.where>, John Sessoms  <no.one@no.where> wrote:
>Michael Austin wrote:
>> 
>> I am not advocating staying with or dropping BSIS, just to throw in
>> something to think about... where ever you are located your DSL provider
>> will always be one step removed from your primary telco.
>> 
>> Example:
>> BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
>> (eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
>> will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
>> into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
>> you want via that entire connection.
>> 
>> In otherwords, if you get slow response from the primary telco, you will
>> get even worse response from the upstream provider.  And they may have

Which ain't necessarily so...

>> not be any better at supporting their network than BSIS does.
>> 
>
>BSIS hasn't been "slow". That's about the only thing that is working.
>
>It's all the problems with newsgroups, email outages, outsourcing
>support to some trojan-ware site, their general non-responsiveness
>when problems arise and/or the nonsensical, absurdly demonstrably
>false responses when they do deign to respond, and their apparent
>non-concern regarding SPAM.

DirecTV, despite all of the moaning from some people (one of which
who is now moaning about RR service,[1] so, go figure), has been fine
for me, with the exception of occasional DNS flakiness (easily 
cured by "borrowing" someone else's DNS for the evening), and 
somewhat spotty news server performance (the speed varies), which I 
don't use very much anyway.  I'm getting no SPAM, but, I haven't 
broadcast any email addresses, either.  When I moved this fall (and 
migrated from being a "former Telocity customer" to being an "official" 
DirecTV customer), I had problems that were due to BellSloth's slackness.  
Tech support was courteous, knowledgeable, and efficient.  I wasn't 
treated like *I* was the problem (ARE YOU LISTENING, EARTHLINK?)  When 
Level 1 support couldn't fix the problem, I was referred to Level 2 with 
no delay, where the problem was diagnosed in one brief session, (the Tech
called *me* back when I was unable to work with him on the spot) and fixed 
the next day.  Since then, (I know, I'm asking for it here) my connection
has been stable, with very consistent throughput performance.
 
>I could probably live with some of the problems if I could only get a
>straight answer out of them once in a while, instead of being jerked
>around.

Try DirecTV.  The only vendor with Tech Support that's ever called *me*
back to work on the problem.

[1]  IMNSHO, broadband service/support is about where dialup was back
     when the only provider in the area (predating VNet, NANDO, etc)
     worth using was the old MCNC (now NC-REN) Concert-Connect, which 
     got bought by Interpath (and actually continued to be a great 
     service until all of the old MCNC'ers started leaving).  For 
     those of you who weren't around then, this was early 1992, so, 
     think of how dialup was then, and you'll understand a bit more 
     about why broadband is in the shape it's in.

-- 
  Tom Wilson          | Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to
  SAS Institute Inc.  | reinvent it, poorly.
  sasctw@unx.sas.com  |                      -- Henry Spencer  
          Opinions are mine, not of SAS Institute Inc.

"Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
don't.  "

I Agree, I did troubleshooting for 2 years as a front line tech, and most of
my peers (who were certified) came to me for help. I wish BS would get with
the program and offer me a position, I could improve on a situation that
seems bad at best and total crap at worst.

regul8tr

"Michael Austin" <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message
news:3C634B5E.97A57DE2@firstdbasource.com...
> I am not advocating staying with or dropping BSIS, just to throw in
> something to think about... where ever you are located your DSL provider
> will always be one step removed from your primary telco.
>
> Example:
> BellSouth is the ONLY local phone company.  Your wire connects
> (eventually) to their CO.  If you go with Earthlink (or whatever) you
> will use the BS DSLAM with some sort of gateway to EL. Then you move
> into EL's backbone that will then take you to UUNET and you get to where
> you want via that entire connection.
>
> In otherwords, if you get slow response from the primary telco, you will
> get even worse response from the upstream provider.  And they may have
> not be any better at supporting their network than BSIS does.
>
> I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks reading other  providers
> "complaint" NGs and they sound a lot like what has been stated in this
> group... This ISP <pick your favorite synonym for "stinks"> including
> poor NG and Email maintenance, speed issues etc. etc.. etc...
>
> Warning:   The following will probably offend some. Others will laugh
> and others may cry.  Read at your own risk.
> <SOAPBOX>
>
> I am going to step out on a limb here... For the most part the ISP
> business has improved over the last 8-10 years when this whole WWW
> became "consumer available".  While the bandwidth building boom as all
> but stagnated, there are still areas that need a LOT of improvement.
> Getting companies to expand their networks to the "ruaral" areas for a
> very small ROI, is difficult.  With the current downturn in the economy,
> the first thing to go when you lose your job is the "luxuries" like
> email, and wirless phones etc... companies are being forced to hire kids
> right out of college, pay them next to nothing and yet the consumer
> expect "world-class" support.  Most of these kids are barely out diapers
> that are running a lot of these shops.  A number of these kids (18-24)
> are very good and they have learned their trade well, but for every
> really good troubleshooter on staff, you will have many, many more who
> are inexperienced and lazy and unwilling to figure it out.
>
> Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
> money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
> due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
> one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
> some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
> of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
> does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
> graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
> of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
> unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
> don't.
>
> The whole point of this speech is, at this point in time, given the
> above factors (kids running the networks, companies pay kids to read
> queue cards etc...), you may have a very good experience with your ISP
> or you won't. And "you pays your money and you takes your chances".
> </SOAPBOX>
>
> Good luck.
> --
> Michael Austin
> First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.com
> Sr. Consultant
>
> John Sessoms wrote:
> >
> > Are there any alternatives to BellSouth for ADSL connection in
> > Raleigh, NC. I am looking for ADSL only, not cable.
> >
> > I would prefer someone with reliable service, including news feed, and
> > a competent in house support staff.
> >
> > --
> > I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> > All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> > blame!
> >
> >                 John Sessoms
>

burris wrote:
> 
> You bet I did....sorry..
> 
> http://www.dslx.net/home.htm
> 
> burris


Thanks.

--
I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
blame!

		John Sessoms

regul8tr wrote:
> 
> "Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
> money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
> due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
> one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
> some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
> of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
> does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
> graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
> of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
> unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
> don't.  "
> 
> I Agree, I did troubleshooting for 2 years as a front line tech, and most of
> my peers (who were certified) came to me for help. I wish BS would get with
> the program and offer me a position, I could improve on a situation that
> seems bad at best and total crap at worst.

Troubleshooting can be learned, but not at some quickie scam school
that teaches nothing but the certification test. I learned
troubleshooting in 16 weeks at the US Army Signal School. And then
spent another 5 years of semi-OJT improving those skills.

And often the quickie schools are a scam, because they don't really
teach enough to pass the test. It's over $10,000 for the school, then
you have to pay more than $100 to take the test, and then have to pay
again to take it again ... and again ...

However, what all these certification scams DO do is to put you at a
disadvantage because you have 20 some years experience and no piece of
paper.


--
I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
blame!

		John Sessoms

I agree Completely. Hell, I picked up my troubleshooting skills from my Mom.
She worked in Laboratory Science for 20 years. The real world experience is
invaluable. I have 2 certs, but my certs were obtained the hard way. That's
the debate over "paper" <insert certification name here>

regul8tr

"John Sessoms" <no.one@no.where> wrote in message
news:3C63EAD9.A50F2582@no.where...
> regul8tr wrote:
> >
> > "Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
> > money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
> > due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
> > one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
> > some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
> > of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
> > does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
> > graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
> > of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
> > unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
> > don't.  "
> >
> > I Agree, I did troubleshooting for 2 years as a front line tech, and
most of
> > my peers (who were certified) came to me for help. I wish BS would get
with
> > the program and offer me a position, I could improve on a situation that
> > seems bad at best and total crap at worst.
>
> Troubleshooting can be learned, but not at some quickie scam school
> that teaches nothing but the certification test. I learned
> troubleshooting in 16 weeks at the US Army Signal School. And then
> spent another 5 years of semi-OJT improving those skills.
>
> And often the quickie schools are a scam, because they don't really
> teach enough to pass the test. It's over $10,000 for the school, then
> you have to pay more than $100 to take the test, and then have to pay
> again to take it again ... and again ...
>
> However, what all these certification scams DO do is to put you at a
> disadvantage because you have 20 some years experience and no piece of
> paper.
>
>
> --
> I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> blame!
>
> John Sessoms
>

The other problem is getting past just-out-of-college-degreed HR
personnel who do not know the value of certification vs. experience. 
Any manager worth his salt would take an experienced person over
certification any day.  The cert has the paper, but the experienced
person will keep him out of trouble.  (except that usually the
experience guy (meaning older) usually needs a higher rate) 

First of all I am a DBA, And what really gets me is that, companies want
cheap.  Yea, that's it. Let's give all of our company data to a bunch of
kids to maintain... never mind they have never done it before, because
they are cheap.

<YELL volume=REALLY LOUD>
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!!!
</YELL>

Can't tell that I have been dealing with this lately can you??? :)

Funny story from a company that made Fiber-optic junction boxes... 

A worker that applied for a new milling-machine position had the 24yr HR
person tell this guy that has been working precision milling machines
(down to micron-level measurements) for over 15 years, that because he
only has a high school diploma doesn't have the math skills for the new
position.  The Supervisor told the snot-nosed twerp that he would take
this guy over any college-degreed person any day of the week and he had
better not hear this HR person ever tell his experienced people that
because they don't have a piece of paper does not mean they cannot do
the job.


John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> regul8tr wrote:
> >
> > "Most of the latter are individuals who got into computers "for the
> > money".  Most of them should be at McDonald's flipping burgers, because
> > due their abilities should have never been hired.  Which brings me to
> > one of my pet peeves.  Certifications.  These kids paid some money, took
> > some exam and were sent a diploma.  All this tells me is that for most
> > of them, they could take a test.  Having been to school and graduated
> > does not make one a troubleshooter.  I have worked with Comp-Sci
> > graduates and Elec. Engineers that could not troubleshoot their way out
> > of a wet paper bag.  Troubleshooting is something that cannot be learned
> > unless you have this particular ability and you either have it, or you
> > don't.  "
> >
> > I Agree, I did troubleshooting for 2 years as a front line tech, and most of
> > my peers (who were certified) came to me for help. I wish BS would get with
> > the program and offer me a position, I could improve on a situation that
> > seems bad at best and total crap at worst.
> 
> Troubleshooting can be learned, but not at some quickie scam school
> that teaches nothing but the certification test. I learned
> troubleshooting in 16 weeks at the US Army Signal School. And then
> spent another 5 years of semi-OJT improving those skills.
> 
> And often the quickie schools are a scam, because they don't really
> teach enough to pass the test. It's over $10,000 for the school, then
> you have to pay more than $100 to take the test, and then have to pay
> again to take it again ... and again ...
> 
> However, what all these certification scams DO do is to put you at a
> disadvantage because you have 20 some years experience and no piece of
> paper.
> 
> --
> I do not speak for any corporation, government or organization.
> All opinions expressed are uniquely my own. Ain't nobody else to
> blame!
> 
>                 John Sessoms

-- 

Regards,

Michael Austin
First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.com
President/Sr. DBA Consultant
704-947-1089 (Office)
704-236-4377 (Mobile)

Folk wrote:
<stuff snipped>

> I didn't care if they had never graduated from high school, much
> less college.

You are a very rare breed indeed.
-- 
Regards,

Michael Austin