🚀 go-pugleaf

I have no experience with Melodyne, but I have used both V-Vocal and 
AutoTune.  I strongly prefer AutoTune, both for how invisible you can make 
the pitch correction sound if you know what you're doing, whereas, to my 
ears, V-Vocal tends to impart a subtle flavor which feels a bit electronic 
to my ears, and for the general interface for tuning (it's a lot easier for 
me to control drawing of pitch curves in their graphic mode due to having a 
Bezier curve function that lets you just place points and let it connect 
them, rather than having to have more accurate mouse skills).

However, the version of AutoTune I'm using (from memory, I think V4?) only 
deals with pitch correction, not stuff like larger shifts for harmonization 
and time shifting (e.g. to tighten up background vocals against the lead 
vocal).  Thus, my general M.O. has been to use AutoTune for lead vocals and 
any other exposed parts, and use V-Vocal when I also need to do some time 
corrections on parts that will be buried a bit more (mainly background 
vocals, but sometimes also lead vocal doubles, which I tend to mix behind 
the lead vocal by 9 dB or more).

If I remember correctly, the latest version of AutoTune also has some newer 
functionality, more like Melodyne and V-Vocal.  I haven't tried that to 
date, though.

Rick

-- 
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================


"muzician21" <muzician21@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:04eadfa1-c72b-4fd1-ab43-00c2db056b88@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Anyone have recent experience with these apps?
>
> Having looked at some YouTube vid, Melodyne and V-Vocal seem to be
> similar. I've read some older posts where some felt V-Vocal wasn't on
> par with Melodyne, wonder if that's still true.
>
> I've downloaded the demo of Melodyne, I haven't gotten deep into it
> but it's obviously in a different universe than the pitch correction
> I'm used to - i.e. wrestling with envelopes in Soundforge 5. 

On Mar 3, 5:36 pm, muzician21 <muzicia...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anyone have recent experience with these apps?
>
> Having looked at some YouTube vid, Melodyne and V-Vocal seem to be
> similar. I've read some older posts where some felt V-Vocal wasn't on
> par with Melodyne, wonder if that's still true.
>
> I've downloaded the demo of Melodyne, I haven't gotten deep into it
> but it's obviously in a different universe than the pitch correction
> I'm used to - i.e. wrestling with envelopes in Soundforge 5.

    Someone here said the new version of Melodyne plugin is the
closest thing they've seen to magic.  And it really is - it can
extract and pitch correct/reharmonize individual notes in _polyphonic_
material now.  The demo on their website, where the inventor records
an acoustic guitar, and Melodyne extracts a six string score from it
is amazing.  Then while playing the track back, he pitch
shifts/'reharmonizes the individual strings in real time on a
keyboard!  It's really something.

    Also while I have always done pitch correction the old fashioned
way, "comping" a part from several takes, I think the interface/
workspace of Melodyne looks a lot more user friendly and intuitive
than Autotune.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Rick Paul" <rickp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have no experience with Melodyne, but I have used both V-Vocal and
> AutoTune.  I strongly prefer AutoTune, both for how invisible you can make
> the pitch correction sound if you know what you're doing, whereas, to my
> ears, V-Vocal tends to impart a subtle flavor which feels a bit electronic
> to my ears,

Agreed. Imo, the older versions of AutoTune have
a grainier sound, but a sound that can sit well in tracks.

I don't know V-Vocal but I find the instant "sound"
of Melodyne too clean/thin and less "musical" to
my ears. I know I'm being subjective, and I do
realize there are ways around it. Auto-Tune
Evo is also cleaner-sounding than its predecessor.

But I still wanna save up for Melodyne for
reharmonization, re-writing melodies,
harmony arrangements, smooth timestretching,
and all the different ways the melody or
chords can be manipulated.

> and for the general interface for tuning (it's a lot easier for
> me to control drawing of pitch curves in their graphic mode due to having a
> Bezier curve function that lets you just place points and let it connect
> them, rather than having to have more accurate mouse skills).

In Waves Tune it's possible to mouse-draw the pitch curve.
I didn't find a way to do this in Melodyne, is it possible?

Is it possible to mouse draw the pitch curve in Auto
Tune, graphical mode?

I know Melodyne can export to midi file with pitch bend
info, so that makes it possible to paste vibrato onto a
dead straight note.
Melodyne can increase or decrease the *amount* of
vibrato but that's not the same thing.

The main thing I'd wanna do is to apply bends and
vibrato from say, modern R&B, Indian music,
Old Blues, etc... to certain notes sung by someone
with slack, non-specific (or too retro) phrasing.

I'm convinced they did this to one particular
Pop song that's out in the UK at the moment,
ie copy the vibrato information from the demo vocalist/
backing singer onto the notes of the artist's
lead vocal.
A below average British singer with an impeccable
contemporary "American" R&B vibrato?? Lol, I don't
know *any* British singers that can nail that phrasing
properly. Someone's been clicking the mouse.

>
> However, the version of AutoTune I'm using (from memory, I think V4?) only
> deals with pitch correction, not stuff like larger shifts for harmonization
> and time shifting (e.g. to tighten up background vocals against the lead
> vocal).  Thus, my general M.O. has been to use AutoTune for lead vocals and
> any other exposed parts, and use V-Vocal when I also need to do some time
> corrections on parts that will be buried a bit more (mainly background
> vocals, but sometimes also lead vocal doubles, which I tend to mix behind
> the lead vocal by 9 dB or more).
>
> If I remember correctly, the latest version of AutoTune also has some newer
> functionality, more like Melodyne and V-Vocal.  I haven't tried that to
> date, though.
>
> Rick
>
> --
> =======================================
> Rick Paul
> Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
> Web:www.RickPaul.info
> MySpace:www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
> =======================================
>
> "muzician21" <muzicia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:04eadfa1-c72b-4fd1-ab43-00c2db056b88@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Anyone have recent experience with these apps?
>
> > Having looked at some YouTube vid, Melodyne and V-Vocal seem to be
> > similar. I've read some older posts where some felt V-Vocal wasn't on
> > par with Melodyne, wonder if that's still true.
>
> > I've downloaded the demo of Melodyne, I haven't gotten deep into it
> > but it's obviously in a different universe than the pitch correction
> > I'm used to - i.e. wrestling with envelopes in Soundforge 5.

On Mar 4, 12:19 pm, rakmanenuff <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Whilst on that subject...

In several YouTube videos people are using speech synthesis
instead of speaking in their own voice.
Might be someone with a bad accent, low confidence,
someone wishing to remain anonymous, or they might
just be using it for effect.

I've tried those and they're quite good. So.. by combining
the speech synthesis technology with Melodyne, it
should, in theory, be possible to create a virtual singer
that can demo one's songs. My phrasing, my timing,
but the sound of Whitney Houston...?

How many vowel sounds are there in the English
language? OK, I'm being lazy, there must be articles
on phonetics on the net.

On Mar 4, 7:34 am, rakmanenuff <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 12:19 pm, rakmanenuff <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Whilst on that subject...
>
> In several YouTube videos people are using speech synthesis
> instead of speaking in their own voice.
> Might be someone with a bad accent, low confidence,
> someone wishing to remain anonymous, or they might
> just be using it for effect.
>
> I've tried those and they're quite good. So.. by combining
> the speech synthesis technology with Melodyne, it
> should, in theory, be possible to create a virtual singer
> that can demo one's songs. My phrasing, my timing,
> but the sound of Whitney Houston...?
>
> How many vowel sounds are there in the English
> language? OK, I'm being lazy, there must be articles
> on phonetics on the net.

   Perhaps Zero-G's stuff (LEON, LOLA, Miriam, etc...) would be of
interest to you.  The sampled all the phenomes of a few great singers
and built virtual singer plugins based on the actual person.

http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=804

    But a good vibrato should happen naturally, when you sing
correctly - and safely.  Incorrect singing can damage your voice, some
say permanently.  But it's a natural thing, picture a ball suspended
with strings above and below.  Properly relaxed and balanced between
the two, the ball will vibrate evenly/produce a natural vibrato. But
too much tension below and notes pull flat, above and notes pull
sharp. If you are having trouble a good voice teacher can get you
pointed in the right direction so you don't hurt yourself, and singing
is supposed to be a fun life activity, not just commerce....

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

On Mar 4, 5:33 pm, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:

>    Perhaps Zero-G's stuff (LEON, LOLA, Miriam, etc...) would be of
> interest to you.  The sampled all the phenomes of a few great singers
> and built virtual singer plugins based on the actual person.
>
> http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=804

Lol. Thanks for the links. Appreciated.
U gave me what I asked for, but.....

Hilarious. They sound bl..dy awful :)

That's what will happen if all the notes
are entered via mouse or keyboard with
the voices of theatre-trained $%^&£*@!s
from London's West End. The "portamento"
aspect of it was interesting though.

Oh well. But with different source singers
and more integration between guide
vocals and artificial tones it must be
possible to take it way further.

>     But a good vibrato should happen naturally, when you sing
> correctly - and safely.  Incorrect singing can damage your voice, some
> say permanently.  But it's a natural thing, picture a ball suspended
> with strings above and below.  Properly relaxed and balanced between
> the two, the ball will vibrate evenly/produce a natural vibrato. But
> too much tension below and notes pull flat, above and notes pull
> sharp. If you are having trouble a good voice teacher can get you
> pointed in the right direction so you don't hurt yourself, and singing
> is supposed to be a fun life activity, not just commerce....

Yeah but that's quite subjective. To some people
the "oLLLLLLD mAAAAAN riiVVVVVVeRRRRR"
or typical "Jazz" vibrato sounds good, (not to mention
Opera) but to others those sound terrible.
Likewise when Reggae singers try to sing R&B the reggae vibrato
(which sounds great in the context of reggae) wrecks it.

Some Irish or Welsh singers have a fast vibrato, 3X as
fast as the Reggae one, some styles have moved away
from vibrato and either keep it straight/subtle or use note-bending
instead.
I'm sure it's possible to find decent session singers
in Nashville or LA, but in London you'd be hard pressed
to find anyone that don't sound like Theatre or
really lame 60s/Aretha clones.

"rakmanenuff" <rakmanenuff@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:5983509b-466b-4a71-ae65-e26b17b9b6e6@m36g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 4, 5:33 pm, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:

> Perhaps Zero-G's stuff (LEON, LOLA, Miriam, etc...) would be of
> interest to you. The sampled all the phenomes of a few great singers
> and built virtual singer plugins based on the actual person.
>
> http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=804

Lol. Thanks for the links. Appreciated.
U gave me what I asked for, but.....

Hilarious. They sound bl..dy awful :)


Agreed.

Interesting technology, but needs lots of work! 

On Mar 4, 2:22 pm, rakmanenuff <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 5:33 pm, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >    Perhaps Zero-G's stuff (LEON, LOLA, Miriam, etc...) would be of
> > interest to you.  The sampled all the phenomes of a few great singers
> > and built virtual singer plugins based on the actual person.
>
> >http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=804
>
> Lol. Thanks for the links. Appreciated.
> U gave me what I asked for, but.....
>
> Hilarious. They sound bl..dy awful :)
>
> That's what will happen if all the notes
> are entered via mouse or keyboard with
> the voices of theatre-trained $%^&£*@!s
> from London's West End. The "portamento"
> aspect of it was interesting though.
>
> Oh well. But with different source singers
> and more integration between guide
> vocals and artificial tones it must be
> possible to take it way further.
>
> >     But a good vibrato should happen naturally, when you sing
> > correctly - and safely.  Incorrect singing can damage your voice, some
> > say permanently.  But it's a natural thing, picture a ball suspended
> > with strings above and below.  Properly relaxed and balanced between
> > the two, the ball will vibrate evenly/produce a natural vibrato. But
> > too much tension below and notes pull flat, above and notes pull
> > sharp. If you are having trouble a good voice teacher can get you
> > pointed in the right direction so you don't hurt yourself, and singing
> > is supposed to be a fun life activity, not just commerce....
>
> Yeah but that's quite subjective. To some people
> the "oLLLLLLD mAAAAAN riiVVVVVVeRRRRR"
> or typical "Jazz" vibrato sounds good, (not to mention
> Opera) but to others those sound terrible.
> Likewise when Reggae singers try to sing R&B the reggae vibrato
> (which sounds great in the context of reggae) wrecks it.
>
> Some Irish or Welsh singers have a fast vibrato, 3X as
> fast as the Reggae one, some styles have moved away
> from vibrato and either keep it straight/subtle or use note-bending
> instead.
> I'm sure it's possible to find decent session singers
> in Nashville or LA, but in London you'd be hard pressed
> to find anyone that don't sound like Theatre or
> really lame 60s/Aretha clones.

    Do I detect a subconcious fear of education?  Don't think great
R&B singers are untrained, natural talent, working R&B records just
about every singer and session player who came in told me the same
story, they learned it in Church.  Some Churches have incredible
Performing Arts training going on, to where I decided I was culturally
deprived growing up.  Once you learn the basics, you can take it in
whatever stylistic direction you want. But I think it's a major
misconception to think that learning "correct" singing equates to the
kind of singing you hate. You just need to find a flexible teacher who
understands where you want to go.  There are a lot of vocal tricks to
learn too, just like there are tricks when you play guitar, or when
you want a growl or harmonics on sax, or anything.

     You don't _have_ to use vibrato.  But if you have your mechanics
down, it occurs naturally is what I was saying.  And with a "free"
voice, you don't get a flat wobble or pull sharp all the time either.
Not that I'm a great singer, I screwed my voice up singing wrong for a
long time.  But I know enough to know what I don't know, and a good
teacher is a wonderful, helpful thing.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:309374b0-98d8-424d-b11d-63facf7be119@l37g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>   Perhaps Zero-G's stuff (LEON, LOLA, Miriam, etc...) would be of
> interest to you.  The sampled all the phenomes of a few great singers
> and built virtual singer plugins based on the actual person.
>
> http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=804

Note that LEON, LOLA, and MIRIAM (you can find my review of MIRIAM at 
http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemid=2) 
are the first generation of products from Yamaha's Vocaloid technology. 
There is now also a second generation (Vocaloid 2), the best of which, in my 
opinion based purely on demos I've heard (including one that was using one 
of my songs), is Sweet Ann:

http://www.powerfx.com/ProducerDetails.aspx?id=49&tx_category_id=438&tx_category_id=438

If you listen to the entire demo there (press the button just below the red 
price in the CDs section), you'll hear "her" being used in a variety of 
contexts, some a bit more successful than others.  I still don't think 
you'll mistake "her" for a human singer, but "she" does represent a big step 
up from even MIRIAM, which was the best of the first generation of 
Vocaloids.

Other second generation Vocaloids I'm aware of include Big Al (I don't think 
this one was ever released, as I can't seem to find a product page anywhere) 
and Prima (http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1004).  I found Big 
Al to be especially hilarious, with a very terse delivery that I could 
almost imagine being Reb Tevyi(sp?) from "Fiddler on the Roof" trying to 
imitate James Brown. ;-)

If you want to hear Sweet Ann and Big Al dueting on one of my songs (I wrote 
the English lyrics, Alexei Ustinov wrote the music and original Russian 
lyrics), go to:

http://www.jasminemusic.com/vocaloid/05-28-2007.htm

and check out the clips of "Make Me Feel".  (Note that they are using an 
early draft of the lyrics, not the final ones.  The "official" recording of 
the song was done over a year later as a duet between Beverly Bremers and 
me.  Best place to hear that straight through is 
http://www.lala.com/#album/2306124484406511236.  To hear more than a 
30-second clip, you have to register, but that's free, and then you can 
listen to any song in their entire collection, which is vast, once straight 
through.  They also give you something like 50 "web song"  credits, which 
allow you to play songs you get that way permanently, when you register --  
or at least they did when I registered.)  I had no involvement in the 
Vocaloid demos of the song, other than authorizing the use of the song (and, 
in fact, writing a lyric that I felt might have a bit of humor if sung by a 
robot while still working in a more traditional context with human singers), 
nor have I tried any of the second generation Vocaloids myself.  The Sweet 
Ann/Big Al demos at the URL above were done in Russia by Alexei Ustinov and 
some of his associates at either Jasmine Music Technologies.

Rick
-- 
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================

On Mar 5, 6:49 am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:

>     Do I detect a subconcious fear of education?  Don't think great
> R&B singers are untrained, natural talent, working R&B records just
> about every singer and session player who came in told me the same
> story, they learned it in Church.  

Do I detect really cliched definitions of what constitutes
"education", "correct" etc...?

I'm far from "untrained" - personally,
but I don't think the exact route someone takes is
important as long as they put in serious work to get
good at what they do.
A well trained, specific singer can be an excellent thing,
and a quirky self-taught singer can be a wonderful
thing too, Sinatra/Whitney vs The Clash/Lil Wayne
and whatnot.

> But I think it's a major
> misconception to think that learning "correct" singing equates to the
> kind of singing you hate.

If a person prefers red wine with certain meals and
diet coke with certain other meals, does than automatically
mean they're filled with "hate", lol?

I like all types of music personally, but there are limits
to how much punk rock you can stick into an ambient
IDM tune before it turns into a mish mash that no
ordinary music fan would like or wanna buy, even
if people into creativity or art might appreciate it.

> You just need to find a flexible teacher
(snip)
> a good teacher is a wonderful, helpful thing.

Lol, like.. a teacher so flexible that they can
teach an old bloke like me to sing like Avril,
rap like Chamillionaire, play guitar like
Joe Pass... uh... yeah I think there is such
a flexible teacher/learning environment out there,
it's called the "internet".

rakmanenuff <rakmanenuff@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 5, 6:49 am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
> 
> >     Do I detect a subconcious fear of education?  Don't think great
> > R&B singers are untrained, natural talent, working R&B records just
> > about every singer and session player who came in told me the same
> > story, they learned it in Church.  
> 
> Do I detect really cliched definitions of what constitutes
> "education", "correct" etc...?
> 
> I'm far from "untrained" - personally,
> but I don't think the exact route someone takes is
> important as long as they put in serious work to get
> good at what they do.
> A well trained, specific singer can be an excellent thing,
> and a quirky self-taught singer can be a wonderful
> thing too, Sinatra/Whitney vs The Clash/Lil Wayne
> and whatnot.

Yep. I don't think Doc Watson ever took formal guitar lessons. But he
sure has taught a world full of us about gutiar playing.

> > But I think it's a major
> > misconception to think that learning "correct" singing equates to the
> > kind of singing you hate.
> 
> If a person prefers red wine with certain meals and
> diet coke with certain other meals, does than automatically
> mean they're filled with "hate", lol?
> 
> I like all types of music personally, but there are limits
> to how much punk rock you can stick into an ambient
> IDM tune before it turns into a mish mash that no
> ordinary music fan would like or wanna buy, even
> if people into creativity or art might appreciate it.
> 
> > You just need to find a flexible teacher
> (snip)
> > a good teacher is a wonderful, helpful thing.

Or not, depending...

> Lol, like.. a teacher so flexible that they can
> teach an old bloke like me to sing like Avril,
> rap like Chamillionaire, play guitar like
> Joe Pass... uh... yeah I think there is such
> a flexible teacher/learning environment out there,
> it's called the "internet".

Ren� Grant-Williams is an extremely versatile vocal coach:



-- 
ha
shut up and play your guitar

On Mar 5, 6:49 am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:

Am I understanding this one correctly, btw?

Engineer/programmer on Usenet: "How can I make my software do this?"
Reply: "Get some singing lessons"

LOL, not as crazy as it seems perhaps,

rakmanenuff  <rakmanenuff@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 5, 6:49=A0am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Am I understanding this one correctly, btw?
>
>Engineer/programmer on Usenet: "How can I make my software do this?"
>Reply: "Get some singing lessons"
>
>LOL, not as crazy as it seems perhaps,

Not at all.  Software will be obsolete in a year or two... in a decade
the hardware to run it won't even be available.  But performance skills
last the rest of your life.
--scott

-- 
"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:gop73k$akq$1@panix2.panix.com...
> rakmanenuff  <rakmanenuff@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Mar 5, 6:49=A0am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >Am I understanding this one correctly, btw?
> >
> >Engineer/programmer on Usenet: "How can I make my software do this?"
> >Reply: "Get some singing lessons"
> >
> >LOL, not as crazy as it seems perhaps,
>
> Not at all.  Software will be obsolete in a year or two... in a decade
> the hardware to run it won't even be available.  But performance skills
> last the rest of your life.

And it's cost efficient too ! ! !

Poly

On Mar 5, 1:53 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> rakmanenuff  <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Mar 5, 6:49=A0am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Am I understanding this one correctly, btw?
>
> >Engineer/programmer on Usenet: "How can I make my software do this?"
> >Reply: "Get some singing lessons"
>
> >LOL, not as crazy as it seems perhaps,
>
> Not at all.  Software will be obsolete in a year or two... in a decade
> the hardware to run it won't even be available.  But performance skills
> last the rest of your life.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

     Yeah, say one wants to program a solo and section of violins,
All things being equal, a real violinist will clean your clock
programming the same score every time, because they understand the
instrument, how to make it expressive.  Sure, I can play with all the
subtle performance settings on one of the great, new and very complex
solo violin plug ins. Or just get a real player to play.  It's a lot
faster and more fun with a real person, and the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

On Mar 5, 7:37 am, rakmanenuff <rakmanen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 6:49 am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >     Do I detect a subconcious fear of education?  Don't think great
> > R&B singers are untrained, natural talent, working R&B records just
> > about every singer and session player who came in told me the same
> > story, they learned it in Church.
>
> Do I detect really cliched definitions of what constitutes
> "education", "correct" etc...?

    Not at all. But Dave Brubeck told me one time the secret to his
success was always working with people that were better than himself.
I have seen my share of people who think it is "unoriginal" to learn
anything from someone else.  While ironically they do their best to
cop everything their favorite artist does, usually badly and often to
their own detriment.  Is a compulsive need to reinvent the wheel
artistic intergrity or arrogant stupidity?  Look, many kids today
think having "total artistic control" over what they do will make
their work better, more real.  But without  someone in the position of
Producer, would there ever have been a Beatles?  Would Jimmy Page ever
have learned anything?

    I think the internet is fine, but it is no substitute for real
life teachers and mentors.

>
> I'm far from "untrained" - personally,
> but I don't think the exact route someone takes is
> important as long as they put in serious work to get
> good at what they do.
> A well trained, specific singer can be an excellent thing,
> and a quirky self-taught singer can be a wonderful
> thing too, Sinatra/Whitney vs The Clash/Lil Wayne
> and whatnot.
>

     I love folk art.  But with singing, you can damage your
instrument and limit it's useful life.   I'm not great at singing, but
I enjoy it and would feel crappy if my own stubborness led to it being
rendered useless.

>
> If a person prefers red wine with certain meals and
> diet coke with certain other meals, does than automatically
> mean they're filled with "hate", lol?

    Didn't say it, and meant no such thing.

>
> I like all types of music personally, but there are limits
> to how much punk rock you can stick into an ambient
> IDM tune before it turns into a mish mash that no
> ordinary music fan would like or wanna buy, even
> if people into creativity or art might appreciate it.
>
>
>
> > You just need to find a flexible teacher
> (snip)
> > a good teacher is a wonderful, helpful thing.
>
> Lol, like.. a teacher so flexible that they can
> teach an old bloke like me to sing like Avril,
> rap like Chamillionaire, play guitar like
> Joe Pass... uh... yeah I think there is such
> a flexible teacher/learning environment out there,
> it's called the "internet".

   Ever hear the saying, "When the student is ready the teacher will
appear"?  Even with a teacher you have to do the work yourself.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message 
news:gop73k$akq$1@panix2.panix.com...
> rakmanenuff  <rakmanenuff@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On Mar 5, 6:49=A0am, WillStG <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Am I understanding this one correctly, btw?
>>
>>Engineer/programmer on Usenet: "How can I make my software do this?"
>>Reply: "Get some singing lessons"
>>
>>LOL, not as crazy as it seems perhaps,
>
> Not at all.  Software will be obsolete in a year or two... in a decade
> the hardware to run it won't even be available.  But performance skills
> last the rest of your life.

Counterpoint - I was talking to a professional photographer yesterday, and 
he said that digital cameras are incorporating so many technical skills into 
themselves that many professional photographers are loosing their market for 
common kinds of photography - special events, etc.  Now this may be a 
comment on the skills of the newly unemployed, or just the perceptions of 
potential customers, but it does seem to be impacting a certain profession.