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TX PYRO <txpyro@flush.net> wrote in message
news:387a5183.4407399@news.ilinkusa.net...
> I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
> The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> C++ and it made life much easier.
>
> I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> would be greatly appreciated?
>
> txpyro@flAsh.net

Derek P. <dprior80@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:85filn$7hu$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Portability is the key.

Perhaps it's key for you, but does that mean it should be key for all of us?

Personally, I find the language features far more important than whether my
programs will run on other platforms.

Yeah, I got a recomendation.  STAY AWAY FROM J++.  It's from Microsoft
and it is Java, but with some important differences (at least that's
what my CS professor told me).  Microsoft supposedly (or so I have
heard) gave J++ keywords and features that are not platform independent
in their attempt to "kill cross-platform Java."  Really, there are some
shareware programs out there that will color code your source and allow
you to create a button to compile with the JDK so you don't need a
development environment.  However, I have worked with Visual Cafe and
found it bearable (although I prefer the aformentioned shareware text
editors.)

~Derek

In article <387a5183.4407399@news.ilinkusa.net>,
  txpyro@flush.net (TX PYRO) wrote:
> I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
> The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> C++ and it made life much easier.
>
> I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> would be greatly appreciated?
>
> txpyro@flAsh.net
>

--
Derek Prior
University Of Massachusetts
Computer Science Major, Class of 2002


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Sun owns NetBeans now:

	http://www.netbeans.com/

Tony Alicea

---------------------------

TX PYRO wrote:
> 
> I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
> 
> The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> C++ and it made life much easier.
> 
> I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> would be greatly appreciated?
> 
> txpyro@flAsh.net

I am of the opinion that J++ is a good tool for any level of programmin
for windows based systems.  I don't know how you would get your
programs to run on Sun OS with MS J++.  I'm pretty sure that you can
set it up to do that...but I have never done it.  If you really want a
sure fire answer get a configurable text editor such as editplus and
download jdk1.2 from sun.

J++ has a lot of nice features if not in the language in the IDE, but
it is designed to target windows.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

> J++ has a lot of nice features if not in the language in the IDE, but
> it is designed to target windows.

Yes, yes it is.  That's the very reason it should be boycotted by
everyone on this board.  They're trying to turn java into just another
programming language.  Portability is the key.

--
Derek Prior
University Of Massachusetts
Computer Science Major, Class of 2002


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Portability across more than 2-3 very similar os's is really not
valuable.  How do make calls relative to the system?  You can't call a
system property of windows in unix and vice versa right?  So why do you
want to have apps that run on any platform?...unless you are using
applets or internet applications then right on.  Also, most of suns new
java stuff is not platform independent at all....so why all the fuss.
I actually use J++ and jdk1.2 from sun...I like both.  They have
advantages and disadvantages.

Jeremy


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Try Visual Cafe' 4 by Symantec.

TX PYRO wrote:

> I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
> The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> C++ and it made life much easier.
>
> I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> would be greatly appreciated?
>
> txpyro@flAsh.net

Because it is movement in the wrong direction.  Obviously, calls
relative to a system can not be made.  Potential, however, is there.
Cell phones, pagers, televisions.... Why dilute the language with
specific keywords now and just ruin any chance at portability.  A
program like the NetBeans IDE is a prime example.  1 program can be used
in Solaris, Mac, Linux, NT.  J++ is merely microsofts attempt to ruin
cross platform java. Maybe it's a great program with a clean, sensible
environment, but it doesn't change the fact that it was developed to
dilute java.

I believe this is an interesting conversation, worthy of continuing.  I
will post a new thread on it soon.

~Derek

In article <85fjq9$8g8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  JLP <porter188@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Portability across more than 2-3 very similar os's is really not
> valuable.  How do make calls relative to the system?  You can't call a
> system property of windows in unix and vice versa right?  So why do
you
> want to have apps that run on any platform?...unless you are using
> applets or internet applications then right on.  Also, most of suns
new
> java stuff is not platform independent at all....so why all the fuss.
> I actually use J++ and jdk1.2 from sun...I like both.  They have
> advantages and disadvantages.
>
> Jeremy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

--
Derek Prior
University Of Massachusetts
Computer Science Major, Class of 2002


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

In article <85fms2$aud$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Derek P. <dprior80@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Because it is movement in the wrong direction.  Obviously, calls
> relative to a system can not be made.  Potential, however, is there.
> Cell phones, pagers, televisions.... Why dilute the language with
> specific keywords now and just ruin any chance at portability.  A
> program like the NetBeans IDE is a prime example.  1 program can be
used
> in Solaris, Mac, Linux, NT.  J++ is merely microsofts attempt to ruin
> cross platform java. Maybe it's a great program with a clean, sensible
> environment, but it doesn't change the fact that it was developed to
> dilute java.
>
> I believe this is an interesting conversation, worthy of continuing.
I
> will post a new thread on it soon.
>
> ~Derek
>
Well,
I don't mind continuing a conversation...
I don't want to confuse the new guys and I don't want involved in war
of words and slams...that is useless.  Now that I've said that...I'll
continue.

As I said previously platform independence is highly valuable for
internet type things...I should have been a little more generic and
stated communications in general.  Obviously platform independence
alleviates the need to specialize anything to a platform.

As far as J++ goes, I frankly, don't care what Micro$oft'$ motive'$
were...perhaps, I have Idea$ about what they could be...like $$.  But
regardless, I have to say, their IDE is awesome.  I've looked at lots
of different ones and admittedly I haven't used too many but, I have
used a few others and this one is a good practical way to learn
programming.

Some will complain...it's not pure java...but none have obviously tried
to fix it.  I have just downloaded an add in manager and plan to
develop a tool to interface directly with J++ to produce pure jdk1.2
using sun's compiler...of course this will alleviate completely the
need for anything but the editor portion of J++. But it's always there
if you want it....

You may be thinking it's not possible to use sun's compiler but I have
just run an executable using my add on which means I only have to give
it parameters and choose javac, java...or whatever and I'm set!

It's more than possible to do...and the sad thing is that the
capability has been there for several years but not too many know about
it....just search this group and you'll see try add-ins...you'll find a
handfull of 3rd party software types...but nothing from ms.

Oh, I have to say, I have little knowledge of programming...I'm a
physicsist but I taught myself programming...I just happened to choose
java!  So I may not be able to keep up with your conversation too
long...but I'll read and post when I can...

Jeremy


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Well, I will open the conversation up to others on the thread
titled "How Portable is Java?"  Later...

In article <85fvjo$h37$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  JLP <porter188@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <85fms2$aud$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Derek P. <dprior80@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Because it is movement in the wrong direction.  Obviously, calls
> > relative to a system can not be made.  Potential, however, is there.
> > Cell phones, pagers, televisions.... Why dilute the language with
> > specific keywords now and just ruin any chance at portability.  A
> > program like the NetBeans IDE is a prime example.  1 program can be
> used
> > in Solaris, Mac, Linux, NT.  J++ is merely microsofts attempt to
ruin
> > cross platform java. Maybe it's a great program with a clean,
sensible
> > environment, but it doesn't change the fact that it was developed to
> > dilute java.
> >
> > I believe this is an interesting conversation, worthy of continuing.
> I
> > will post a new thread on it soon.
> >
> > ~Derek
> >
> Well,
> I don't mind continuing a conversation...
> I don't want to confuse the new guys and I don't want involved in war
> of words and slams...that is useless.  Now that I've said that...I'll
> continue.
>
> As I said previously platform independence is highly valuable for
> internet type things...I should have been a little more generic and
> stated communications in general.  Obviously platform independence
> alleviates the need to specialize anything to a platform.
>
> As far as J++ goes, I frankly, don't care what Micro$oft'$ motive'$
> were...perhaps, I have Idea$ about what they could be...like $$.  But
> regardless, I have to say, their IDE is awesome.  I've looked at lots
> of different ones and admittedly I haven't used too many but, I have
> used a few others and this one is a good practical way to learn
> programming.
>
> Some will complain...it's not pure java...but none have obviously
tried
> to fix it.  I have just downloaded an add in manager and plan to
> develop a tool to interface directly with J++ to produce pure jdk1.2
> using sun's compiler...of course this will alleviate completely the
> need for anything but the editor portion of J++. But it's always there
> if you want it....
>
> You may be thinking it's not possible to use sun's compiler but I have
> just run an executable using my add on which means I only have to give
> it parameters and choose javac, java...or whatever and I'm set!
>
> It's more than possible to do...and the sad thing is that the
> capability has been there for several years but not too many know
about
> it....just search this group and you'll see try add-ins...you'll find
a
> handfull of 3rd party software types...but nothing from ms.
>
> Oh, I have to say, I have little knowledge of programming...I'm a
> physicsist but I taught myself programming...I just happened to choose
> java!  So I may not be able to keep up with your conversation too
> long...but I'll read and post when I can...
>
> Jeremy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

--
Derek Prior
University Of Massachusetts
Computer Science Major, Class of 2002


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

If you build a Visual J++ "empty project" it can be ported. But once you
start adding ocx's and COM wrappers, the compiler will add microsoft windows
extensions to your code. It will warn you first. So as long as you stay away
from "windows" stuff, your code will be portable.

Visual J++ is a fine tool, intuitive, and easy to use. about 100X better
than any UNIX development environment I have used.

As far as for a school project, it would probably be overkill. - you could
just use note pad or vi (depending on the environment you are working in.)

However, the industry standard seems to be going towards Visual Cafe; but
there are alot of Visual J++ users as well. Becasue of the microsoft trials,
Microsoft is holding back on a lot of new feature development. If you can
get a free trial of Visual Cafe that might be your best route.




Tony Alicea <tony@alicea.org> wrote in message
news:387ABB47.50CBE867@alicea.org...
> Sun owns NetBeans now:
>
> http://www.netbeans.com/
>
> Tony Alicea
>
> ---------------------------
>
> TX PYRO wrote:
> >
> > I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> > instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> > our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> > the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
> >
> > The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> > covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> > Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> > C++ and it made life much easier.
> >
> > I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> > software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> > (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> > would be greatly appreciated?
> >
> > txpyro@flAsh.net

Why do people continue to mention "Notepad" like in "real HTML
programmers use Notepad" etc.

This IS the last year of the 20th century, for Pete's sake! It's time we
start using...

	Wordpad

instead!!

Ha ha! Gotcha! :-)

---
Tony Alicea

Portability? Visual J++ runs on ALL the platforms!!!
Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Workstation,  Windows NT and Windows 2000.



JLP wrote in message <85fvjo$h37$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <85fms2$aud$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>  Derek P. <dprior80@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Because it is movement in the wrong direction.  Obviously, calls
>> relative to a system can not be made.  Potential, however, is there.
>> Cell phones, pagers, televisions.... Why dilute the language with
>> specific keywords now and just ruin any chance at portability.  A
>> program like the NetBeans IDE is a prime example.  1 program can be
>used
>> in Solaris, Mac, Linux, NT.  J++ is merely microsofts attempt to ruin
>> cross platform java. Maybe it's a great program with a clean, sensible
>> environment, but it doesn't change the fact that it was developed to
>> dilute java.
>>
>> I believe this is an interesting conversation, worthy of continuing.
>I
>> will post a new thread on it soon.
>>
>> ~Derek
>>
>Well,
>I don't mind continuing a conversation...
>I don't want to confuse the new guys and I don't want involved in war
>of words and slams...that is useless.  Now that I've said that...I'll
>continue.
>
>As I said previously platform independence is highly valuable for
>internet type things...I should have been a little more generic and
>stated communications in general.  Obviously platform independence
>alleviates the need to specialize anything to a platform.
>
>As far as J++ goes, I frankly, don't care what Micro$oft'$ motive'$
>were...perhaps, I have Idea$ about what they could be...like $$.  But
>regardless, I have to say, their IDE is awesome.  I've looked at lots
>of different ones and admittedly I haven't used too many but, I have
>used a few others and this one is a good practical way to learn
>programming.
>
>Some will complain...it's not pure java...but none have obviously tried
>to fix it.  I have just downloaded an add in manager and plan to
>develop a tool to interface directly with J++ to produce pure jdk1.2
>using sun's compiler...of course this will alleviate completely the
>need for anything but the editor portion of J++. But it's always there
>if you want it....
>
>You may be thinking it's not possible to use sun's compiler but I have
>just run an executable using my add on which means I only have to give
>it parameters and choose javac, java...or whatever and I'm set!
>
>It's more than possible to do...and the sad thing is that the
>capability has been there for several years but not too many know about
>it....just search this group and you'll see try add-ins...you'll find a
>handfull of 3rd party software types...but nothing from ms.
>
>Oh, I have to say, I have little knowledge of programming...I'm a
>physicsist but I taught myself programming...I just happened to choose
>java!  So I may not be able to keep up with your conversation too
>long...but I'll read and post when I can...
>
>Jeremy
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.

Terry wrote:

>
> Visual J++ is a fine tool, intuitive, and easy to use. about 100X better
> than any UNIX development environment I have used.

The first thing I do when evaluating an IDE, is check out how it behaves when I
give it an existing source file,
from an existing project, and try to compile it.
How easy is it to set up where to look for class libraries, where compiled
classes should be put, which compiler to use etc. All IDE's I have tried, except
NetBeans, have failed this test. This includes the latest JBuilder and Visual
J++. And NetBeans is free......

With J++, while I was editing a file, I for some reason wanted to move up one
line, include "this." ahead of a variable name, then move down one line. Instead
the editor brought up a list-box that I had not asked for and did not want, and
instead of moving the cursor to the next line it moved inside the list-box.
Tools should do what you ask them to do, not try to behave intelligent when they
can't.

erik.

If you've got a reasonable amount of space on this system, I would just 
install the JDK (available from java.sun.com) and use it with a text editor.  
On the Sun system, type java -version to see if java is installed.  If you 
must use a PC, I suspect that the packages already suggested do too 
much for a first pass at using Java.  The only benefit to having a copy of 
Symantec visual cafe available is the class browser, but I dislike 
the interface to visual cafe (personal opinion only, folks).  Get a decent 
text editor - if you get horstmann and Cornells' "Core Java" (an excellent pair
of reference books, IMHO) it has a copy of Textpad which canbe used to call 
java from within the program, if you want to develop on a PC. 

Pete

In comp.lang.java TX PYRO <txpyro@flush.net> wrote:
: I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
: instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
: our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
: the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.

: The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
: covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
: Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
: C++ and it made life much easier.

: I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
: software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
: (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
: would be greatly appreciated?

: txpyro@flAsh.net

In article <387C4D30.68EACBA8@hydro.com>,
  Erik Dybdahl <erik.dybdahl@hydro.com> wrote:
>
>
> Terry wrote:
>
> >
> > Visual J++ is a fine tool, intuitive, and easy to use. about 100X
better
> > than any UNIX development environment I have used.
>
> The first thing I do when evaluating an IDE, is check out how it
behaves when I
> give it an existing source file,
> from an existing project, and try to compile it.
> How easy is it to set up where to look for class libraries, where
compiled
> classes should be put, which compiler to use etc. All IDE's I have
tried, except
> NetBeans, have failed this test. This includes the latest JBuilder
and Visual
> J++. And NetBeans is free......
>
> With J++, while I was editing a file, I for some reason wanted to
move up one
> line, include "this." ahead of a variable name, then move down one
line. Instead
> the editor brought up a list-box that I had not asked for and did not
want, and
> instead of moving the cursor to the next line it moved inside the
list-box.
> Tools should do what you ask them to do, not try to behave
intelligent when they
> can't.
>
> erik.
>
>
Sounds like you got a helping of intellisense.  At first this feature
seems a nuisance.  But what about when your programing and you user
defined methods or when you just don't remember variables and constants
you have defined...this is where intellisense is a nice feature.
Personally, I think it's great.  I guess it's user preference.  I'm not
sure if you can turn it off or not...I've never tried.
Jeremy

--
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad.
Aldous Huxley


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

> Sounds like you got a helping of intellisense.  At first this feature
> seems a nuisance.  But what about when your programing and you user
> defined methods or when you just don't remember variables and constants
> you have defined...this is where intellisense is a nice feature.
> Personally, I think it's great.  I guess it's user preference.  I'm not
> sure if you can turn it off or not...I've never tried.
> Jeremy

You're probably right, but there is something called first impression, and
it is most often correct. At least it stopped me from investigating the
product further. Not a great loss to MS, i guess......
erik.

Erik Dybdahl <erik.dybdahl@hydro.com> wrote in message
news:387C4D30.68EACBA8@hydro.com...
> the [J++] editor brought up a list-box that I had not asked for and did
not want

It's rather difficult for a tool to know what every user wants. Therefore,
it must use the defaults that the developers think most users want. It seems
logical for an IDE's defaults to use productivity tools like IntelliSense.

> Tools should do what you ask them to do, not try to behave intelligent
when they
> can't.

All you have to do is ask J++ not to use that feature...

The very first thing I do with any tool is go to Options and set things up
to my taste. I'm an optionaholic--the more, the better. :)

Erik Dybdahl <erik.dybdahl@hydro.com> wrote in message
news:387CAA4D.1B892818@hydro.com...
> there is something called first impression, and
> it is most often correct. At least it stopped me from investigating the
> product further.

Let me get this straight. Say a tool has a hundred different options. You
start to use the tool, and the default for _one_ of those options doesn't
match your preferences. So you dump the tool without further ado.

Geez, I thought _my_ users were tough! :)

I Love It!


"Wally Highsmith" <wallyh@IHATESPAMMERS_clientlink.com> wrote:

>Portability? Visual J++ runs on ALL the platforms!!!
>Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Workstation,  Windows NT and Windows 2000.
>
>
... snip ...

I heard somewhere that M$ closed down the development of J++. Is that correct?

> > With J++, while I was editing a file, I for some reason wanted to move
> up one
> > line, include "this." ahead of a variable name, then move down one
> line. Instead
> > the editor brought up a list-box that I had not asked for and did not
> want, and
> > instead of moving the cursor to the next line it moved inside the
> list-box.
> > Tools should do what you ask them to do, not try to behave intelligent
> when they
> > can't.

I agree. Visual Age has a similar helper-feature, with the difference that
you get to decide by yourself (!) (by pressing <ctrl>-space) when you want
that list-box. This takes less over-all performance (the tool doesn't have
to be continuously over-intelligent), and you don't get the annoyance that
the tool 'guessed' wrong. Cudos to M$ though; Auto-correct can be turned
OFF in Word.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/news/rumors.asp

From Microsoft....

Letter to Our Customers
By now we imagine some of you have read news reports indicating Microsoft
has sold Visual J++ to another company. We want to make it clear that these
articles are in error. We absolutely have not - and have no plans - to sell
off the Visual J++ product. Visual J++ 6.0 is the most widely used Java
development tool, and we look forward to its continued success in the
market.

These articles were most likely the result of confusion around announcements
connected with the Visual Studio Integrators Program (VSIP). VSIP allows
third party vendors to build compilers and related tools that integrate
directly into the Visual Studio environment.

As a member of this program, Rational announced they would be producing a
Java compiler that will run inside Visual Studio. This product will be
completely designed, developed, and marketed by Rational and has nothing to
do with Visual J++. You may be interested to know that VSIP will bring a
variety of languages from other vendors to Visual Studio as well, including
additional Java support by TowerJ, several versions of COBOL, and more.

We stand behind the innovations first surfaced in Visual J++ and want to see
them continue. Unfortunately, there is a cloud of doubt over the industry's
ability to innovate and advance Java long term. Until we receive and
understand some rulings currently pending before the court hearing the Java
lawsuit, we cannot make announcements on future Visual J++ product strategy.

Thank you,

The Visual J++ Team
Microsoft Corporation

Last Updated: 12/14/99

� 2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Terms of Use.


Sten Bergqvist wrote in message <387DDFAD.A2C0F2CB@telia.com>...
>I heard somewhere that M$ closed down the development of J++. Is that
correct?
>
>

It sounds more like your instructor was saying you could
use any *version* of the core java software development
kit, rather than a development environment.
In case you didn't already know, Sun Microsystems,
the company that developed and maintains the Java
language, has released several updated versions of
the language, and I think this is what your instructor was
talking about.

Java 2, or version 1.2.2 is the latest final released version,
so go to Sun's site at java.sun.com and get the Standard
Edition; it has the compiler and everything. All you need is
any text editor to write the code. That's all you need to just
program and this is the best way to learn because you can
then see how Java works.

All other graphical IDEs are great in making your
programming life easier, I would at least familiarize
myself with how java works first.

If you have to have an IDE, here are some free ones
to learn from. I think all except Java Workshop include
the SDK with the program. For Workshop, you have to
have the SDK installed first.

NetBeans Developer &
Forte for Java Community Edition, also released by
NetBeans (aka Sun). Forte CE is available for free download
as a beta now, but they say when the final version is released,
it will continue to be free:
http://www.netbeans.com/index.html

Sun's Java Workshop 3.0 Community Edition:
http://www.sun.com/workshop/java/

VisualAge for Java, Entry Edition, ver.3:
http://www7.software.ibm.com/vad.nsf/data/document2590

JBuilder University Edition:
http://www.borland.com/education/jbuilder/

- Ranger Fox
____________________________

TX PYRO wrote in message <387a5183.4407399@news.ilinkusa.net>...
>I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
>instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
>our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
>the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
>The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
>covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
>Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
>C++ and it made life much easier.
>
>I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
>software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
>(I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
>would be greatly appreciated?
>
>txpyro@flAsh.net

Sten Bergqvist <steneman@telia.com> wrote in message
news:387DE243.504EF442@telia.com...
>
> I agree. Visual Age has a similar helper-feature, with the difference that
> you get to decide by yourself (!) (by pressing <ctrl>-space) when you want
> that list-box.

Actually, I haven't seen a real IDE that _doesn't_ have this feature. Nor
have I seen one where you can't turn this feature off, and invoke it with a
keystroke (like VisualAge).

Ranger Fox <ranger.fox@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message
news:85l4jq$8qv$1@usc.edu...
>
> All other graphical IDEs are great in making your
> programming life easier, I would at least familiarize
> myself with how java works first.

Hmmm. In what way does an IDE prevent knowing "how Java works"? (This is
assuming you don't use form builders, where I'd agree with you.)

I'd think the newbie most of all would appreciate syntax colouring, an
integrated full-featured debugger, project management, code completion, and
easy access to Java documentation.

__REAL__ programmers use vi (or even ed ;-)

Tony Alicea wrote:

> Why do people continue to mention "Notepad" like in "real HTML
> programmers use Notepad" etc.
>
> This IS the last year of the 20th century, for Pete's sake! It's time we
> start using...
>
>         Wordpad
>
> instead!!
>
> Ha ha! Gotcha! :-)
>
> ---
> Tony Alicea

Wally Highsmith wrote:

> http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/news/rumors.asp
>
> From Microsoft....
>
> Letter to Our Customers
> By now we imagine some of you have read news reports indicating Microsoft
> has sold Visual J++ to another company. We want to make it clear that these
> articles are in error. We absolutely have not - and have no plans - to sell
> off the Visual J++ product. Visual J++ 6.0 is the most widely used Java
> development tool, and we look forward to its continued success in the
> market.
>
> These articles were most likely the result of confusion around announcements
> connected with the Visual Studio Integrators Program (VSIP). VSIP allows
> third party vendors to build compilers and related tools that integrate
> directly into the Visual Studio environment.
>
> As a member of this program, Rational announced they would be producing a
> Java compiler that will run inside Visual Studio. This product will be
> completely designed, developed, and marketed by Rational and has nothing to
> do with Visual J++. You may be interested to know that VSIP will bring a
> variety of languages from other vendors to Visual Studio as well, including
> additional Java support by TowerJ, several versions of COBOL, and more.
>
> We stand behind the innovations first surfaced in Visual J++ and want to see
> them continue. Unfortunately, there is a cloud of doubt over the industry's
> ability to innovate and advance Java long term. Until we receive and
> understand some rulings currently pending before the court hearing the Java
> lawsuit, we cannot make announcements on future Visual J++ product strategy.
>
> Thank you,
>
> The Visual J++ Team
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> Last Updated: 12/14/99
>
> � 2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Terms of Use.
>
> Sten Bergqvist wrote in message <387DDFAD.A2C0F2CB@telia.com>...
> >I heard somewhere that M$ closed down the development of J++. Is that
> correct?
> >
> >

Reassuring, but for some reason it just sounds too much like Apple speaking
about not killing the Newton when they brought them back into Apple. Of course,
a few months later they did kill it. Took several more months for them to admit
it, though. No more active development was going on, but they did have
inventory they wanted to clear out.


--
"My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks
But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y.

Ranger Fox wrote in message <85l4jq$8qv$1@usc.edu>...
>If you have to have an IDE, here are some free ones
>to learn from. I think all except Java Workshop include
>the SDK with the program. For Workshop, you have to
>have the SDK installed first.
>
>NetBeans Developer &
>Forte for Java Community Edition, also released by
>NetBeans (aka Sun). Forte CE is available for free download
>as a beta now, but they say when the final version is released,
>it will continue to be free:
>http://www.netbeans.com/index.html
>
>Sun's Java Workshop 3.0 Community Edition:
>http://www.sun.com/workshop/java/
>
>VisualAge for Java, Entry Edition, ver.3:
>http://www7.software.ibm.com/vad.nsf/data/document2590
>
>JBuilder University Edition:
>http://www.borland.com/education/jbuilder/



Here's one more I forgot about:

Sybase PowerJ Learning Edition:
http://www.sybase.com/products/powerj/le.html


- Ranger Fox

Mark Wilden wrote in message ...
>Ranger Fox <ranger.fox@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message
>news:85l4jq$8qv$1@usc.edu...
>>
>> All other graphical IDEs are great in making your
>> programming life easier, I would at least familiarize
>> myself with how java works first.
>
>Hmmm. In what way does an IDE prevent knowing "how Java works"? (This is
>assuming you don't use form builders, where I'd agree with you.)

Granted, I'm a Java newbie myself and I've found IDEs confusing. It's just
another thing to have to learn beside the Java language, which was
tough enough for me to begin with. What I was referring to about IDEs
is that, yes, it makes your life easier by automating things, but that's
not a good way to start learning. Such as I know someone who started
out learning Java in an IDE but was barely aware of what compiling a
program does since it was done automatically for him.

>I'd think the newbie most of all would appreciate syntax colouring, an
>integrated full-featured debugger, project management, code completion, and
>easy access to Java documentation.


I definitely would second the syntax coloring. Which is why I like
general purpose text editors suited to this purpose, such as
TextPad. And the full-featured debugger certainly helps.
Maybe it's because I'm trying to learn Java from a non-programmer's
background, but I think that when you're starting to learn Java,
you're not going to be building huge projects initially.
And as for the code completion, that certainly makes things easier,
but doesn't help you if you first need to learn what code is required.

But each person learns in a different way; and what works well
for some, doesn't for others, so just do what works for you.
But looking at it from an educational standpoint, It's sorta like
making a kid learn basic math before giving him a calculator.

- Ranger Fox

ebor@ebor.com wrote:
> __REAL__ programmers use vi (or even ed ;-)

__REAL__ programmers carefully wave magnets over their hard disks :)

-- 
Jon Skeet - skeet@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/

In article <e5$6XydX$GA.267@cppssbbsa05>, 
wallyh@IHATESPAMMERS_clientlink.com says...
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/news/rumors.asp
> 
> From Microsoft....
> 
> Letter to Our Customers
> By now we imagine some of you have read news reports indicating Microsoft
> has sold Visual J++ to another company. We want to make it clear that these
> articles are in error. We absolutely have not - and have no plans - to sell
> off the Visual J++ product. Visual J++ 6.0 is the most widely used Java
> development tool, and we look forward to its continued success in the
> market.
> 
> These articles were most likely the result of confusion around announcements
> connected with the Visual Studio Integrators Program (VSIP). VSIP allows
> third party vendors to build compilers and related tools that integrate
> directly into the Visual Studio environment.
> 
> As a member of this program, Rational announced they would be producing a
> Java compiler that will run inside Visual Studio. This product will be
> completely designed, developed, and marketed by Rational and has nothing to
> do with Visual J++. You may be interested to know that VSIP will bring a
> variety of languages from other vendors to Visual Studio as well, including
> additional Java support by TowerJ, several versions of COBOL, and more.
> 
> We stand behind the innovations first surfaced in Visual J++ and want to see
> them continue. Unfortunately, there is a cloud of doubt over the industry's
> ability to innovate and advance Java long term. Until we receive and
> understand some rulings currently pending before the court hearing the Java
> lawsuit, we cannot make announcements on future Visual J++ product strategy.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> The Visual J++ Team
> Microsoft Corporation
> 
> Last Updated: 12/14/99
> 
> � 2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Terms of Use.
> 
> 
> Sten Bergqvist wrote in message <387DDFAD.A2C0F2CB@telia.com>...
> >I heard somewhere that M$ closed down the development of J++. Is that
> correct?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
Is that for real?? It sounds like a joke. If not it's the most 
convulated bunch of corporate gobbledy-gook I've seen in a while!

KAC
-- 
KAC Website Design
Custom Programming, Web Design, and Graphics
kenny@kacweb.com    -     http://www.kacweb.com

> > __REAL__ programmers use vi (or even ed ;-)

> __REAL__ programmers carefully wave magnets over their hard disks :)

Hard disks? Pah!

__REAL__ programmers have a row of punch cards on their garden wall, 
and a nice accurate air-rifle.


Jon Moore.

> Actually, I haven't seen a real IDE that _doesn't_ have this feature. Nor
> have I seen one where you can't turn this feature off, and invoke it with a
> keystroke (like VisualAge).

Ok, you're right. But there is a (however) small level of annoyance with
software out-of-the-box-configured the way the salesperson will demo it, not the
way _real_ users would use it.

In article <387a5183.4407399@news.ilinkusa.net>,
  txpyro@flush.net (TX PYRO) wrote:
> I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
> instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
> our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
> the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
> The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
> covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
> Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
> C++ and it made life much easier.
>
> I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
> software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
> (I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
> would be greatly appreciated?
>
> txpyro@flAsh.net
>
Visual J++ is fine for developing on the Windows platform, particularly
if you want to deploy ActiveX controls and utilize COM functionality.
However, it does not support Java 2, so for your purposes I would not
recommend it.  JBuilder would be much better in this regard.

Ken


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Ranger Fox <ranger.fox@zdnetmail.com> wrote in message
news:85ms55$o1t$1@usc.edu...
> Such as I know someone who started
> out learning Java in an IDE but was barely aware of what compiling a
> program does since it was done automatically for him.

Is that really important? I doubt if I could type in the correct commandline
arguments for javac myself off the top of my head. However, if I did need to
know how to do it, I doubt it would take much time to learn. Learning a
(good) IDE should be easier than learning a commandline tool.

Sten Bergqvist <steneman@telia.com> wrote in message
news:387F2E25.4A1A44DF@telia.com...
>
> Ok, you're right. But there is a (however) small level of annoyance with
> software out-of-the-box-configured the way the salesperson will demo it,
not the
> way _real_ users would use it.

Are you sure that most "real users" don't like code completion?

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Jonathan Moore wrote:
> 
> > > __REAL__ programmers use vi (or even ed ;-)
> 
> > __REAL__ programmers carefully wave magnets over their hard disks :)
> 
> Hard disks? Pah!
> 
> __REAL__ programmers have a row of punch cards on their garden wall,
> and a nice accurate air-rifle.
> 
> Jon Moore.

"Why I remember when we didn't even have ones and zeros, all we had were
zeros"
  --Quote from Dilbert

I personally prefer to start the modem up, pick up the phone and hum
into the phone. With these new high-speed modems and ADSL, I can get
several megs worth of programming done in no time!
   LONG LIVE STRICT ANSI C, THE CHOICE OF REAL PROGRAMMERS!
	Burn the heretics that like C++!!!
		Finish the revolution, libc5 forever!

--Dave
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Jonathan Moore wrote:
> 
> > > __REAL__ programmers use vi (or even ed ;-)
> 
> > __REAL__ programmers carefully wave magnets over their hard disks :)
> 
> Hard disks? Pah!
> 
> __REAL__ programmers have a row of punch cards on their garden wall,
> and a nice accurate air-rifle.
> 
> Jon Moore.

"Why I remember when we didn't even have ones and zeros, all we had were
zeros"
  --Quote from Dilbert

I personally prefer to start the modem up, pick up the phone and hum
into the phone. With these new high-speed modems and ADSL, I can get
several megs worth of programming done in no time!
   LONG LIVE STRICT ANSI C, THE CHOICE OF REAL PROGRAMMERS!
	Burn the heretics that like C++!!!
		Finish the revolution, libc5 forever!

--Dave


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tel;home:561-615-9941
tel;work:954-351-2277
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:Unique Products Systems, Inc.
version:2.1
email;internet:dave@htxtech.com
title:Director of Software Development
adr;quoted-printable:;;4900 N. Dixie Highway=0D=0ASuite 3;Fort Lauderdale;FL;33334;USA
x-mozilla-cpt:;-2592
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Glen Pepicelli wrote:
> 
> I know this is off topic but if anyone is looking fra great HTML editor
> try Homesite 4.5. I found it was very powerfull and had all the features
> that you would expect will still being very easy to use.
> 

That's what I use for my HTML, CSS and and JavaScript work and I like it
a lot BUT I have ONE HUGE PROBLEM with it: It must have the WORST EVER
spell checker in history! On the opposite side is Netscape Messenger's
as one of the best, and that one is FREE!! :-)

Ciao,

Tony Alicea

I know this is off topic but if anyone is looking fra great HTML editor
try Homesite 4.5. I found it was very powerfull and had all the features
that you would expect will still being very easy to use.

Tony Alicea wrote:
> 
> Why do people continue to mention "Notepad" like in "real HTML
> programmers use Notepad" etc.
> 
> This IS the last year of the 20th century, for Pete's sake! It's time we
> start using...
> 
>         Wordpad
> 
> instead!!
> 
> Ha ha! Gotcha! :-)
> 
> ---
> Tony Alicea

Thanks to all of you that answered my post.  I think that I will
keep it simple and cheap for right now. I'd rather learn what has
to be done before I have an IDE do it automatically for me. That
worked best for me when I learned some C++. I'll keep the other
ideas handy so if later on I do decide to invest a hand full of
cash on a full power piece of software.

BTW, I learned alot by just reading all the posts.


On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:04:10 GMT, txpyro@flush.net (TX PYRO)
wrote:

>I am enrolled in a university Computer Science I class.  The
>instructor told us we could use any version of Java to develop
>our programs as long as it still compiled and ran correctly on
>the Sun OS-5 based university system. He was real vague.
>
>The last Comp Sci I class I took was at another university and it
>covered C++.  The development software was an ancient Digital
>Equipment Corp version with a PC emulator shell.  I bought Visual
>C++ and it made life much easier.
>
>I'm looking into Visual J++ 6.0 STD, JBuilder 3 STD, or any other
>software for that matter.  The more user friendly the better
>(I've just started learning).  Any recommendations or opinions
>would be greatly appreciated?
>
>txpyro@flAsh.net