🚀 go-pugleaf

On 01/03/2010 14:21, ClueLess wrote:
> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>
> Hi Friends
>
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
>
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
>
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
And the hard drive make/model is?
And the motherboard make/model is?
And the BIOS version is?

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:

> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
> 
> Hi Friends
> 
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire
> cable my computer does not recognize it.
> 
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I swapped
> the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I connected the
> original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I tried both the IDE0
> and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried also other hard disks as
> well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
> 
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
> 
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
> 
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the problem
> is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
> 
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

You'll have to format the hard drive(s) while using the 40-pin cable, and 
then the 80-pin cable will work.


-- 
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet stepped on the land mine.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg

ClueLess <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> clouded the waters of
pure thought with news:j0ino5p7hrvcjpd357c0o7338tqtp5ta5n@4ax.com: 

> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
> 
> Hi Friends
> 
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the
> 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
> 
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I
> tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no
> go. 
> 
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
> 
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
> wire cable.
> 
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
> 
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
> 

Sekrit klew hidden inside this very 0bsCuRe web article which took me 
twenny seconds to locate!

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable-c.html

FYI

-- 
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
cageprisoners.com|www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.eyeonpalin.org
   _____  ____  ____ __ /\_/\ __      _ ______   _____
  / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \  \  __\
 _\ \/    / /_/ / _  / \     / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\  _\
/___/_/|_/\____/_//_/   \_@_/   \__|\__|\____/\____\_\

Dan C wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
> 
> You'll have to format the hard drive(s) while using the 40-pin cable, and 
> then the 80-pin cable will work.


Of course, don't follow this advice, at all! He's trying to be a "funny 
guy".

	Yousuf Khan

"ClueLess" <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote in message 
news:j0ino5p7hrvcjpd357c0o7338tqtp5ta5n@4ax.com...
> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>
> Hi Friends
>
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
>
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
>
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

The 40 wire cable was used by older IDE drives. The 80 wire cable was 
introduced with the advent of Ultra DMA/66, the extra wires serving to 
reduce noise. Full story at http://everything.explained.at/AT_Attachment/

As I recall, with the 40 wire cable you needed to use the cable select on 
the drive to indicate whether the drive was a slave or master, but with the 
80 wire cable it depended on which of the two connectors on the cable it was 
plugged into.

If the drive isn't recognised with the 80 wire cable then I'd suspect either 
the cable or the IDE logic on the motherboard. So whilst you might think the 
cable is fine I'd still try a different cable.

If you can't find anything wrong with it connected via your old 40 wire 
cable, then stick with that. I know that transfer rates will be slower, but 
probably not so you'd notice.
-- 
Brian Cryer
www.cryer.co.uk/brian

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:

> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
> 
> Hi Friends
> 
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
> 
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
> 
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
> 
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
> 
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
> 
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
that.

Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?

In the device manager, do you get any errors?

On 01/03/2010 16:29, richard wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
>> all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
> connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
> that.

Bzzzt! Fail!

http://everything.explained.at/AT_Attachment/

Quote:
"Though the number of wires doubled, the number of connector pins and 
the pinout remain the same as 40-conductor cables, and the external 
appearance of the connectors is identical."

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:29:13 -0700, richard wrote:

> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the
> same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you
> CAN'T do that.

WTF????????????????????????



-- 
"The whole purpose of setting up Guantanamo Bay is for torture. Why do
this? Because you want to escape the rule of law.... Guantanamo and the
military commissions are implements for breaking the law."
Charles Swift, Lt. Cmdr.(Rtd.) U.S.N. JAG Corp,

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 11:52:30 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:29:13 -0700, richard <member@newsguy.com>wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>>
>>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>> 
>>> Hi Friends
>>> 
>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>> 
>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>> 
>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
>>> all the hard disks are recognized.
>>> 
>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>>> cable.
>>> 
>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>> 
>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>>
>>I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the
>>same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you
>>CAN'T do that.
> 
> Post a link showing the differences between connectors on 40 wire and
> those on 80 wire.

A piece of advice: don't hold your breath for that.



-- 
"The whole purpose of setting up Guantanamo Bay is for torture. Why do
this? Because you want to escape the rule of law.... Guantanamo and the
military commissions are implements for breaking the law."
Charles Swift, Lt. Cmdr.(Rtd.) U.S.N. JAG Corp,

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 12:17:36 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:07:45 +0000 (UTC), Aardvark
> <aardvark@youllnever.know>wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 11:52:30 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:29:13 -0700, richard <member@newsguy.com>wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Friends
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>>>>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>>>>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>>>>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>>>>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>>>>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>>>>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>>>> 
>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
>>>>> wire cable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>>>>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>>>> 
>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>>>>
>>>>I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the
>>>>same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you
>>>>CAN'T do that.
>>> 
>>> Post a link showing the differences between connectors on 40 wire and
>>> those on 80 wire.
>>
>>A piece of advice: don't hold your breath for that.
> 
> 
> <exhales> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH <inhales>
> 
> Ok, thanks I almost passed out.

Good thing I caught you in time.



-- 
"The whole purpose of setting up Guantanamo Bay is for torture. Why do
this? Because you want to escape the rule of law.... Guantanamo and the
military commissions are implements for breaking the law."
Charles Swift, Lt. Cmdr.(Rtd.) U.S.N. JAG Corp,

ClueLess wrote:

> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
> 
> Hi Friends
> 
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
> 
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
> 
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
> 
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
> 
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
> 
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.
Only 40 signal wires are used in both.  The 80-wire ribbon cable has a
ground wire between each signal wire to reduce cross-talk and noise.  It is
still a 40-pin connector to a 40-pin connector setup.

There are some cables that are physically altered (by snipping out a very
short length of one signal wire, or not connecting that signal to the
connector pin, or with a missing connector pin) to make them "cable select"
cables.  Rather than you configuring your drives as master and slave, you
configure both to "cable select" and the lack of the signal from controller
to one of the drives makes it the slave.  Unless you using a meter to test
each pin of the 40-pin connector at the mobo end to each matching pin in the
other 40-pin connectors to see if all have continuity or if one is open,
just test using a different 80-wire, 40-pin IDE cable.

It's also possible that the 80-wire, 40-pin cable is damaged so one of its
signal lines is disconnected.  Just because it worked for years doesn't mean
it was a perfect cable.  The connector's pins aren't soldered to the wires.
The ends of the connector's pins are simply split to scissor through the
insulation to make contact with the wired by squeesing the two tangs against
the wire.  It's a mechanical connection.  This is how, for example, a
Scotchlock splicing connector works.  It isn't the most secure or durable
connection.  Also, you pulling on the ribbon cable to remove the cable can
cause damage, especially if you wiggle from side to side to waddle the
connector off the header.  That's why the better cables come with a nylon or
plastic pull tab that is part of the connector assembly and you pull on that
rather than the ribbon cable.

You never mentioned if the connectors were polarized.  If the connector has
no tang (to slide into a matching notch in the shroud around the header
pins) or doesn't use a blank pin 20 (a solid spot where pin 20 would be but
with no hole for a pin to slide into), or the shroud around the headers is
depolarized by having notches on both sides, or the shroud is missing, it's
possible you attached the connector upside down.  It's also possible you
didn't slide the connector all the way onto the header pins.  It's also
possible one of the female pins inside the connector is loose and didn't
make good contact.  Did you ever try a different 80-wire, 40-pin cable?

Desk Rabbit wrote:
> On 01/03/2010 14:21, ClueLess wrote:
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>>
> And the hard drive make/model is?
> And the motherboard make/model is?
> And the BIOS version is?

All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore. 

Dan C wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
> You'll have to format the hard drive(s) while using the 40-pin cable,
> and then the 80-pin cable will work.

That is just plain wrong. 

Brian Cryer wrote:
> "ClueLess" <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:j0ino5p7hrvcjpd357c0o7338tqtp5ta5n@4ax.com...
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
> The 40 wire cable was used by older IDE drives. The 80 wire cable was
> introduced with the advent of Ultra DMA/66, the extra wires serving to
> reduce noise. Full story at
> http://everything.explained.at/AT_Attachment/

> As I recall, with the 40 wire cable you needed to use the cable
> select on the drive to indicate whether the drive was a slave or
> master, but with the 80 wire cable it depended on which of the two
> connectors on the cable it was plugged into.

It should still show up fine on the 80 wire cable.

> If the drive isn't recognised with the 80 wire cable then I'd suspect
> either the cable or the IDE logic on the motherboard. So whilst you
> might think the cable is fine I'd still try a different cable.

Particularly as it isnt hard to get a cable that has the metal
prongs that bite into the ribbon invisibly bent over and just
the act of plugging in the drive can make the fault show up etc.

> If you can't find anything wrong with it connected via your old 40
> wire cable, then stick with that. I know that transfer rates will be
> slower, but probably not so you'd notice.

Makes more sense to work out why it no longer works. 

ClueLess wrote:

> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.

> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire cable.

You can however get invisible damage wth ribbon cables.

The metal prongs that bite into the ribbon can get bent during manufacture
and the act of removing a drive and plugging in a different one can make the
cable faulty. So try a new 80 wire cable because that is mostly likely the problem.

> How does this happen?

See above.

> This is just a banana motherboard and the problem
> is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do 

richard wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess wrote:
>
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to
> the same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that
> you CAN'T do that.

Thats just plain wrong.

> Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
> maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally
> why it isn't recognized.

Thats wrong too with the bios seeing the drive.

> Did the other drives work elswhere?

> In the device manager, do you get any errors?

It isnt even seen by the bios. 

VanguardLH wrote:
> ClueLess wrote:
>
>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>
>> Hi Friends
>>
>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>
>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>
>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>
>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>> cable.
>>
>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>
>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.

Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables usually are not.

> Only 40 signal wires are used in both.  The 80-wire ribbon
> cable has a ground wire between each signal wire to reduce cross-talk
> and noise.  It is still a 40-pin connector to a 40-pin connector setup.

But isnt identical on the cable select question.

> There are some cables that are physically altered (by snipping out a
> very short length of one signal wire, or not connecting that signal
> to the connector pin, or with a missing connector pin) to make them
> "cable select" cables.  Rather than you configuring your drives as
> master and slave, you configure both to "cable select" and the lack
> of the signal from controller to one of the drives makes it the slave.
> Unless you using a meter to test each pin of the 40-pin
> connector at the mobo end to each matching pin in the other 40-pin
> connectors to see if all have continuity or if one is open, just test
> using a different 80-wire, 40-pin IDE cable.

That doesnt explain why the original drive isnt seen anymore.

> It's also possible that the 80-wire, 40-pin cable is damaged so one
> of its signal lines is disconnected.  Just because it worked for
> years doesn't mean it was a perfect cable.  The connector's pins
> aren't soldered to the wires. The ends of the connector's pins are
> simply split to scissor through the insulation to make contact with
> the wired by squeesing the two tangs against the wire.  It's a
> mechanical connection.  This is how, for example, a Scotchlock
> splicing connector works.  It isn't the most secure or durable
> connection.  Also, you pulling on the ribbon cable to remove the
> cable can cause damage, especially if you wiggle from side to side to
> waddle the connector off the header.  That's why the better cables
> come with a nylon or plastic pull tab that is part of the connector
> assembly and you pull on that rather than the ribbon cable.

> You never mentioned if the connectors were polarized.  If the
> connector has no tang (to slide into a matching notch in the shroud
> around the header pins) or doesn't use a blank pin 20 (a solid spot
> where pin 20 would be but with no hole for a pin to slide into), or
> the shroud around the headers is depolarized by having notches on
> both sides, or the shroud is missing, it's possible you attached the
> connector upside down.  It's also possible you didn't slide the
> connector all the way onto the header pins.  It's also possible one
> of the female pins inside the connector is loose and didn't make good
> contact.  Did you ever try a different 80-wire, 40-pin cable? 

Rod Speed wrote: 

>> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE
>> cable.
<which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>
> 
> Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables
> usually are not.

Get an ohmmeter to test.  

http://www.unitechelectronics.com/ide44pinout.gif
(this is the drive header, same pinout as for mobo header; remember to
mirror the image for ribbon connector)

Cable select cables require a pin (#28) not be connected on one of the
device-side connectors.  I already mentioned in my prior post how this can
be done.  The host adapter grounds this signal (i.e., when connected, the
device sees a ground line).  If pin 28 is connected at the device (i.e., the
device sees this signal is grounded), it is the master device.  If this pin
is open (floating), that device is the slave.

Just get a continuity tester to determine in pin 28 is open on one of the
device connectors on the ribbon cable.  I have 80-wire, 40-pin cables that
have pin 28 connected and some where it is open.  I have not seen a
predominance of one or the other to claim a "usual" configuration, and
because of this is why I test.  It all depends on who manufactured the
cable.  For example, the manufacturer might want that same 80-wire cable to
be usable in 40-wire cable setups so they feed pin 28 to all connectors.
The same holds true as to whether the connector or shroud are polarized with
a tang or notch, if depolarized by the absense of a tang or having notches
on both sides of the shroud, or if pin 20 is used as a polarizing key (by
pin 20 missing in header and blocked or solid in the connector).  You have
to look.  For cable-select or not enforced in the manufacture of a 80-wire
ribbon cable, you have to check with a continuity check.

If the connectors on the ribbon cable are color coded, I would suspect
cable-select was enforced through the physical connections as follows:

  - Blue:  Motherboard.    Pin 28 connected.
  - Black: Master device.  Pin 28 connected.
  - Gray:  Slave device.   Pin 28 not connected.

But I'd still check pin 28 with a continuity tester to make sure.  You may
not have cable-enforced cable-select with some 80-wire ribbon cables (i.e.,
pine 28 goes to all connectors) when you want to use cable-select on the
device jumpers.  You may not want cable-enforced cable-select if you are
using jumpers on the devices to configure them as master and slave.  Whether
you have a cable-select cable is something you should really test.

On 01/03/2010 18:50, Rod Speed wrote:
> Desk Rabbit wrote:
>> On 01/03/2010 14:21, ClueLess wrote:
>>> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>>>
>>> Hi Friends
>>>
>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>>>
>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>>>
>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>>>
>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
>>> cable.
>>>
>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>>>
>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>>>
>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>> And the BIOS version is?
>
> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
>
>
Any information is useful at this point. It may be a known problem but 
without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

richard wrote:

> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
> connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
> that.

  Connectors are the same for the 80 as the 40

> Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
> maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
> it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?

  The bios should see it if it's configured right via 
jumpers/connector/etc. Formatting or not does not matter

> In the device manager, do you get any errors?

  If the drive on ide0 isn't seen, how can he boot to Windows, much less 
check DevMgr?

				n0i

VanguardLH wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.

> <which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>

So that claim is just plain wrong. There is in fact that very real difference.

>> Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables usually are not.

> Get an ohmmeter to test.

Dont need one. I use the ATA standard.

<reams of you proving what I said flushed where it belongs>

Desk Rabbit wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>> ClueLess wrote

>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>>>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>>>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>>>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>>>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>>>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>>>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.

>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
>>>> wire cable.

>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>>>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>> And the BIOS version is?

>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.

> Any information is useful at this point.

Wrong again.

> It may be a known problem

Bet it isnt.

> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the
drive connectors are being plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised. 

Meat Plow wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:08:05 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>wrote:
>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>>> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire
>>>> IDE cable.
>> <which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>
>>>
>>> Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire
>>> cables usually are not.
>>
>> Get an ohmmeter to test.
>>
>> http://www.unitechelectronics.com/ide44pinout.gif
>> (this is the drive header, same pinout as for mobo header; remember
>> to mirror the image for ribbon connector)
>>
>> Cable select cables require a pin (#28) not be connected on one of
>> the device-side connectors.  I already mentioned in my prior post
>> how this can be done.  The host adapter grounds this signal (i.e.,
>> when connected, the device sees a ground line).  If pin 28 is
>> connected at the device (i.e., the device sees this signal is
>> grounded), it is the master device.  If this pin is open (floating),
>> that device is the slave.
>>
>> Just get a continuity tester to determine in pin 28 is open on one
>> of the device connectors on the ribbon cable.  I have 80-wire,
>> 40-pin cables that have pin 28 connected and some where it is open.
>> I have not seen a predominance of one or the other to claim a
>> "usual" configuration, and because of this is why I test.  It all
>> depends on who manufactured the cable.  For example, the
>> manufacturer might want that same 80-wire cable to be usable in
>> 40-wire cable setups so they feed pin 28 to all connectors. The same
>> holds true as to whether the connector or shroud are polarized with
>> a tang or notch, if depolarized by the absense of a tang or having
>> notches on both sides of the shroud, or if pin 20 is used as a
>> polarizing key (by pin 20 missing in header and blocked or solid in
>> the connector).  You have to look.  For cable-select or not enforced
>> in the manufacture of a 80-wire ribbon cable, you have to check with
>> a continuity check.
>>
>> If the connectors on the ribbon cable are color coded, I would
>> suspect cable-select was enforced through the physical connections
>> as follows:
>>
>>  - Blue:  Motherboard.    Pin 28 connected.
>>  - Black: Master device.  Pin 28 connected.
>>  - Gray:  Slave device.   Pin 28 not connected.
>>
>> But I'd still check pin 28 with a continuity tester to make sure.
>> You may not have cable-enforced cable-select with some 80-wire
>> ribbon cables (i.e., pine 28 goes to all connectors) when you want
>> to use cable-select on the device jumpers.  You may not want
>> cable-enforced cable-select if you are using jumpers on the devices
>> to configure them as master and slave.  Whether you have a
>> cable-select cable is something you should really test.
>
> Dell has been using Cable Select for at least 11 years.
> Long before 80 wire and UDMA 5 came to fruition.

And so did Compaq. 

On 02/03/2010 00:00, Rod Speed wrote:
> Desk Rabbit wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>> ClueLess wrote
>
>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>>>>> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
>>>>> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
>>>>> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
>>>>> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
>>>>> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this,
>>>>> bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>
>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
>>>>> wire cable.
>
>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
>>>>> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>> And the BIOS version is?
>
>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
>
>> Any information is useful at this point.
>
> Wrong again.

Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.

>
>> It may be a known problem
>
> Bet it isnt.
Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly. 100% success 
with correct information.

>
>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.
>
> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the
> drive connectors are being plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.

I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully before 
you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in. I'll draw your 
attention to the particular sentence which says:

"I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."

Rod Speed wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
> 
>>>> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.
> 
>> <which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>
> 
> So that claim is just plain wrong. There is in fact that very real difference.
> 
>>> Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables usually are not.
> 
>> Get an ohmmeter to test.
> 
> Dont need one. I use the ATA standard.
> 
> <reams of you proving what I said flushed where it belongs>

Good luck trying to configure 2 hard drives to use cable select when the
80-wire cable that you happen to use has pin 28 connected on both device
connectors.

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess
<clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote:

>Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>
>Hi Friends
>
>Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
>wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>

Here are some clarifications:

Mercury 845GL mobo
Only one drive checked at a time.
The drives checked are all Seagate 80 gb 
The original hard disk was working for years with the 80 conductor
cable, correctly mounted - blue end on mobo, hard drive at the end,
set as master.

Only after I checked with another similar hard disk that the problem
started.

I have tried several 80 conductor cables and none work.

All the drives are recognized without exception when using the 40
conductor cable.

I have been using computers since CP/M days and assemble my own when
required but this has got me stumped.

I am very happy at the enthusiastic response from so many of you but
the explanation still eludes :-(

-- 
ClueLess

Get a clue.  Real men don't use PATA cables anymore!  Time for a new 
computer.

"ClueLess" <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote in message 
news:j0ino5p7hrvcjpd357c0o7338tqtp5ta5n@4ax.com...
> Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk
>
> Hi Friends
>
> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
> swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
> connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
> tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
> also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
> all the hard disks are recognized.
>
> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
> cable.
>
> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
> problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
> -- 
> Thank you for your time and response
>
> ClueLess 

Desk Rabbit wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>> ClueLess wrote

>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not 
>>>>>> recognized. Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.
>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire 
>>>>>> cables, still no go.

>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.

>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>>>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
>>>>>> wire cable.

>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says 
>>>>>> "Not installed")

>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>> And the BIOS version is?

>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.

>>> Any information is useful at this point.

>> Wrong again.

> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.

And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.

>>> It may be a known problem

>> Bet it isnt.

> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.

Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.

> 100% success with correct information.

Not with the information you requested there wont be.

>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being 
>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.

> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully

I know what the OP said.

> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.

You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out if its predicament.

> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:

> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."

Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector
on the wrong way around with a non polarised connector on the cable. 

VanguardLH wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> VanguardLH wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>> Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.

>>> <which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>

>> So that claim is just plain wrong. There is in fact that very real difference.

>>>> Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables usually are not.

>>> Get an ohmmeter to test.

>> Dont need one. I use the ATA standard.

>> <reams of you proving what I said flushed where it belongs>

> Good luck trying to configure 2 hard drives to use cable
> select when the 80-wire cable that you happen to use
> has pin 28 connected on both device connectors.

Irrelevant to the fact that your original is just plain wrong.

And fuck all 80 wire cables are like that anyway.

And the OP said that more than one 80 wire cable had been tried. 

ClueLess <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote
> ClueLess <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote

>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk
>> using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

> Here are some clarifications:

> Mercury 845GL mobo
> Only one drive checked at a time.
> The drives checked are all Seagate 80 gb

> The original hard disk was working for years with the 80 conductor
> cable, correctly mounted - blue end on mobo, hard drive at the end,
> set as master.

You didnt say if the drive connectors or the motherboard end are polarised.

> Only after I checked with another similar hard disk that the problem started.

> I have tried several 80 conductor cables and none work.

> All the drives are recognized without exception when using the 40 conductor cable.

And that should happen with an 80 wire cable too.

> I have been using computers since CP/M days and assemble
> my own when required but this has got me stumped.

> I am very happy at the enthusiastic response from so many of you but the explanation still eludes :-(

Most likely you arent putting the connector in the right way around with the
80 wire cables, or its some weird effect with that particular motherboard.

The motherboard does decide if the 80 wire cable is a cable
select cable from what it can see of the cable, its possible
that that detection has now failed but thats not very likely at all.

Are the drives jumpered for cable select ?  I guess its possible
that they arent and someone had to kludge around a failure of
the bios to detect the drive initially and that kludge got bypassed
with the attempt to test a different drive or something. 

On 02/03/2010 01:51, Rod Speed wrote:
> Desk Rabbit wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>> ClueLess wrote
>
>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not
>>>>>>> recognized. Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.
>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire
>>>>>>> cables, still no go.
>
>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>
>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
>>>>>>> condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80
>>>>>>> wire cable.
>
>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says
>>>>>>> "Not installed")
>
>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?
>
>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
>
>>>> Any information is useful at this point.
>
>>> Wrong again.
>
>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.
>
> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.
>
>>>> It may be a known problem
>
>>> Bet it isnt.
>
>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.
>
> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.
>
>> 100% success with correct information.
>
> Not with the information you requested there wont be.
>
>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.
>
>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being
>>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.
>
>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully
>
> I know what the OP said.
>
>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.
>
> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out if its predicament.

Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.

>
>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:
>
>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."
>
> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector
> on the wrong way around with a non polarised connector on the cable.
>
>

Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows 
what he is doing in terms of putting cables on the right way round as 
the 40 pin cable works.

Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit 
on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)

richard wrote:

> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
> connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
> that.

Huh?  Same 40-pin connector.

> Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
> maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
> it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?

Another Huh?  moment..  the OP stated it didn't show in BIOS.

> In the device manager, do you get any errors?

If it ain't in the BIOS, it ain't gonna be in Device Mangler.

Another one for the RtS playbook of screwups...

Desk Rabbit wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>> ClueLess wrote

>>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize 
>>>>>>>> it.

>>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so
>>>>>>>> I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized.
>>>>>>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.

>>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result.
>>>>>>>> I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

>>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.

>>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good condition. In fact the machine for years worked 
>>>>>>>> with only the 80 wire cable.

>>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and
>>>>>>>> the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

>>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

>>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?

>>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.

>>>>> Any information is useful at this point.

>>>> Wrong again.

>>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.

>> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.

>>>>> It may be a known problem

>>>> Bet it isnt.

And it turns out that when he posted that info, it isnt.

>>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.

>> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.

>>> 100% success with correct information.

>> Not with the information you requested there wont be.

>>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

>>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being 
>>>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.

>>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully

>> I know what the OP said.

>>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.

>> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out if its predicament.

> Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.

Real Translation:  of your shit, I never ever could bullshit my way out of a wet paper bag.

>>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:

>>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."

>> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector on the wrong way around with a non 
>> polarised connector on the cable.

> Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows what he is doing in terms of putting cables on 
> the right way round as the 40 pin cable works.

You dont even know where they are polarised and the 80 wire cable connectors arent.

> Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)

You never did. He posted the info you wanted and it turned out that it didnt help.

Funny that.

Hilarious, actually.

Have fun bullshitting your way out of that. 

"nobody >" <usenetharvested@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:0tOdnaQvyuZCChHWnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@supernews.com...
> richard wrote:
>
>> I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the 
>> same
>> connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
>> that.
>
> Huh?  Same 40-pin connector.
>
>> Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
>> maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
>> it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?
>
> Another Huh?  moment..  the OP stated it didn't show in BIOS.
>
>> In the device manager, do you get any errors?
>
> If it ain't in the BIOS, it ain't gonna be in Device Mangler.
>
> Another one for the RtS playbook of screwups...

I'm waiting for him to come back calling everyone idiots. He usually has at 
least one swipe before going poof and disappearing. 

Rod Speed wrote:

> Irrelevant to the fact that your original is just plain wrong.

Yes, we've seen that you are trying to deny reality regarding that some
80-wire cables have pin 28 attached and some do not.

> And fuck all 80 wire cables are like that anyway.

Are like what?  Some have pin 28 attached, others don't.  So "like that"
means what?  That you don't know until you test?

> And the OP said that more than one 80 wire cable had been tried.

Not at the time that I posted.  The OP said they switched from the 80-wire
cable to a 40-wire cable, not that another 80-wire cable had been tested.
Reread the *original* post which is to what I replied.  Sorry, but my
crystal ball is in the shop so I couldn't see that the OP would later say.

Rocky wrote:

> Get a clue.  Real men don't use PATA cables anymore!  Time for a new 
> computer.

Real men don't care what other men think.

On Mar 1, 7:20 pm, "Rocky" <wook...@att.net> wrote:
> Get a clue.  Real men don't use PATA cables anymore!  Time for a new
> computer.

That makes the third news server this year that will not let you post
with my e-mail address again.

http://Jeff.on.JusticeGoneWild.com

Rocky

On 02/03/2010 05:48, Rod Speed wrote:
> Desk Rabbit wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>> ClueLess wrote
>
>>>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize
>>>>>>>>> it.
>
>>>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so
>>>>>>>>> I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized.
>>>>>>>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.
>
>>>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result.
>>>>>>>>> I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
>>>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>
>>>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good condition. In fact the machine for years worked
>>>>>>>>> with only the 80 wire cable.
>
>>>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and
>>>>>>>>> the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
>>>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
>>>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?
>
>>>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
>
>>>>>> Any information is useful at this point.
>
>>>>> Wrong again.
>
>>>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.
>
>>> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.
>
>>>>>> It may be a known problem
>
>>>>> Bet it isnt.
>
> And it turns out that when he posted that info, it isnt.
>
>>>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.
>
>>> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.
>
>>>> 100% success with correct information.
>
>>> Not with the information you requested there wont be.
>
>>>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.
>
>>>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being
>>>>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.
>
>>>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully
>
>>> I know what the OP said.
>
>>>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.
>
>>> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out if its predicament.
>
>> Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.
>
> Real Translation:  of your shit, I never ever could bullshit my way out of a wet paper bag.
>
>>>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:
>
>>>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."
>
>>> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector on the wrong way around with a non
>>> polarised connector on the cable.
>
>> Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows what he is doing in terms of putting cables on
>> the right way round as the 40 pin cable works.
>
> You dont even know where they are polarised and the 80 wire cable connectors arent.
>
>> Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)
>
> You never did. He posted the info you wanted and it turned out that it didnt help.
>
> Funny that.

Hilarious that another poster was able to post the correct jumper 
settings for the drive because now we know what the OP has.


> Hilarious, actually.
>
> Have fun bullshitting your way out of that.
>
>
Have fun repeatedly swapping cables and wibbling about which way round 
they should go. It's really quite amusing to watch.

VanguardLH wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> Irrelevant to the fact that your original is just plain wrong.

> Yes, we've seen that you are trying to deny reality regarding
> that some 80-wire cables have pin 28 attached and some do not.

Everyone can see you are lying, as always.

>> And fuck all 80 wire cables are like that anyway.

> Are like what?  Some have pin 28 attached, others don't.

Fuck all are not cable select cables, fool.

> So "like that" means what?  That you don't know until you test?

>> And the OP said that more than one 80 wire cable had been tried.

> Not at the time that I posted.

Another lie. The OP said that in the original post, liar.

> The OP said they switched from the 80-wire cable to a 40-wire
> cable, not that another 80-wire cable had been tested.

Another lie. The original post says

>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk
>>> using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so
>>> I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized.
>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not
>>> recognized. I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the
>>> same result. I tried also other hard disks as well other 80
>>> wire cables, still no go.

There it is, you're too stupid to have even noticed.

> Reread the *original* post which is to what I replied.

Done that. You lie.

> Sorry, but my crystal ball is in the shop so I couldn't see that the OP would later say.

Thats what the OP said in the original post, you pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist. 

Meat Plow wrote
> ClueLess <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid>wrote
>> ClueLess <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote

>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk
>>> using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>> Here are some clarifications:

>> Mercury 845GL mobo
>> Only one drive checked at a time.
>> The drives checked are all Seagate 80 gb
>> The original hard disk was working for years with the 80 conductor
>> cable, correctly mounted - blue end on mobo, hard drive at the end,
>> set as master.

>> Only after I checked with another similar hard disk that the problem started.

>> I have tried several 80 conductor cables and none work.

>> All the drives are recognized without exception when using the 40 conductor cable.

>> I have been using computers since CP/M days and assemble
>> my own when required but this has got me stumped.

>> I am very happy at the enthusiastic response from
>> so many of you but the explanation still eludes :-(

> Have you tried a new, unopened package 80 wire cable? I can't imagine
> an IDE controller knowing the difference between 40 and 80 wires

They do actually. The two cables look different to the motherboard.

> unless there is something wrong with it in that it
> is sensitive to a difference in cable impedence.

One of the pins on the motherboard connector is different.

> I would assume an 80 wire cable has a difference in impedence vs a 40 wire.

That effect isnt used. 

Desk Rabbit wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>>> ClueLess wrote

>>>>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using
>>>>>>>>>> the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>>>>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so
>>>>>>>>>> I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized.
>>>>>>>>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.

>>>>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result.
>>>>>>>>>> I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

>>>>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.

>>>>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in
>>>>>>>>>> good condition. In fact the machine for years worked with
>>>>>>>>>> only the 80 wire cable.

>>>>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and
>>>>>>>>>> the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

>>>>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

>>>>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?

>>>>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.

>>>>>>> Any information is useful at this point.

>>>>>> Wrong again.

>>>>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.

>>>> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.

>>>>>>> It may be a known problem

>>>>>> Bet it isnt.

>> And it turns out that when he posted that info, it isnt.

>>>>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.

>>>> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.

>>>>> 100% success with correct information.

>>>> Not with the information you requested there wont be.

>>>>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

>>>>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being 
>>>>>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.

>>>>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully

>>>> I know what the OP said.

>>>>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.

>>>> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out of its predicament.

>>> Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.

>> Real Translation:  of your shit, I never ever could bullshit my way out of a wet paper bag.

>>>>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:

>>>>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."

>>>> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector on the wrong way around with a non 
>>>> polarised connector on the cable.

>>> Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows what he is doing in terms of putting cables on 
>>> the right way round as the 40 pin cable works.

>> You dont even know where they are polarised and the 80 wire cable connectors arent.

>>> Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)

>> You never did. He posted the info you wanted and it turned out that it didnt help.

>> Funny that.

> Hilarious that another poster was able to post the correct jumper
> settings for the drive because now we know what the OP has.

The OP could have checked that for itself if told to do that without knowing what drive it was.

>> Hilarious, actually.

>> Have fun bullshitting your way out of that.

> Have fun repeatedly swapping cables and wibbling about which way round they should go. It's really quite amusing to 
> watch.

Like I said, you never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag. 

On 02/03/2010 18:16, Rod Speed wrote:
> Desk Rabbit wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>>>> ClueLess wrote
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using
>>>>>>>>>>> the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so
>>>>>>>>>>> I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result.
>>>>>>>>>>> I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in
>>>>>>>>>>> good condition. In fact the machine for years worked with
>>>>>>>>>>> only the 80 wire cable.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and
>>>>>>>>>>> the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")
>
>>>>>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
>
>>>>>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?
>
>>>>>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
>
>>>>>>>> Any information is useful at this point.
>
>>>>>>> Wrong again.
>
>>>>>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.
>
>>>>> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.
>
>>>>>>>> It may be a known problem
>
>>>>>>> Bet it isnt.
>
>>> And it turns out that when he posted that info, it isnt.
>
>>>>>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.
>
>>>>> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.
>
>>>>>> 100% success with correct information.
>
>>>>> Not with the information you requested there wont be.
>
>>>>>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.
>
>>>>>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire cable and check that the drive connectors are being
>>>>>>> plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.
>
>>>>>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully
>
>>>>> I know what the OP said.
>
>>>>>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.
>
>>>>> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out of its predicament.
>
>>>> Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.
>
>>> Real Translation:  of your shit, I never ever could bullshit my way out of a wet paper bag.
>
>>>>>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:
>
>>>>>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."
>
>>>>> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector on the wrong way around with a non
>>>>> polarised connector on the cable.
>
>>>> Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows what he is doing in terms of putting cables on
>>>> the right way round as the 40 pin cable works.
>
>>> You dont even know where they are polarised and the 80 wire cable connectors arent.
>
>>>> Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)
>
>>> You never did. He posted the info you wanted and it turned out that it didnt help.
>
>>> Funny that.
>
>> Hilarious that another poster was able to post the correct jumper
>> settings for the drive because now we know what the OP has.
>
> The OP could have checked that for itself if told to do that without knowing what drive it was.
Wriggle, squirm.. ROFL!

>
>>> Hilarious, actually.
>
>>> Have fun bullshitting your way out of that.
>
>> Have fun repeatedly swapping cables and wibbling about which way round they should go. It's really quite amusing to
>> watch.
>
> Like I said, you never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

Here's a small task for you. Rearrange the following into a well know 
phrase or saying. Pot kettle calling black the.

Clue, try randomly juggling the words around until it makes sense.

ClueLess wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:51:31 +0530, ClueLess
> <clueless@wilderness.org.invalid> wrote:

> >Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
> >wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

> Only one drive checked at a time.
> The drives checked are all Seagate 80 gb
> The original hard disk was working for years with the 80 conductor
> cable, correctly mounted - blue end on mobo, hard drive at the end,
> set as master.
>
> Only after I checked with another similar hard disk that the problem
> started.
>
> I have tried several 80 conductor cables and none work.
>
> All the drives are recognized without exception when using the 40
> conductor cable.

I don't know if it matters, but why do you have the HD set to Master
instead of to Cable Select?  I thought with a standard 80-wire IDE
cable, the cable itself distinguished Master from Slave, by having the
wire for pin 28 connected only to the Master.  I've had problems when
I didn't choose Cable Select.  OTOH with external drive enclosures
that contained a short 80-wire IDE cable, Cable Select didn't work
because the signal lines for the cable were wired just like a 40-wire
cable's, so the drive had to be set to Master.

Desk Rabbit wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>>>> Desk Rabbit wrote
>>>>>>>>>>> ClueLess wrote

>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk
>>>>>>>>>>>> using the 80 wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

>>>>>>>>>>>> It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not recognized.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I connected the original hard disk and it was also
>>>>>>>>>>>> not recognized.

>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried also other hard disks as well other 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 80 wire cables, still no go.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo, all the hard disks are recognized.

>>>>>>>>>>>> No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in
>>>>>>>>>>>> good condition. In fact the machine for years worked with
>>>>>>>>>>>> only the 80 wire cable.

>>>>>>>>>>>> How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

>>>>>>>>>>>> If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do

>>>>>>>>>>> And the hard drive make/model is?
>>>>>>>>>>> And the motherboard make/model is?
>>>>>>>>>>> And the BIOS version is?

>>>>>>>>>> All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.

>>>>>>>>> Any information is useful at this point.

>>>>>>>> Wrong again.

>>>>>>> Without facts and information ant diagnostic is just pure guesswork.

>>>>>> And I told the OP how to diagnose the problem. No guesswork whatever involved.

>>>>>>>>> It may be a known problem

>>>>>>>> Bet it isnt.

>>>> And it turns out that when he posted that info, it isnt.

>>>>>>> Could be, maybe not. 50-50 chance of guessing correctly.

>>>>>> Wrong again. There is a much lower proobability than that that your guess is correct.

>>>>>>> 100% success with correct information.

>>>>>> Not with the information you requested there wont be.

>>>>>>>>> but without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.

>>>>>>>> Wrong again. The obvious thing to try is a another 80 wire
>>>>>>>> cable and check that the drive connectors are being plugged in the right way around if they arent polarised.

>>>>>>> I strongly suggest you go back and read the OP's message fully

>>>>>> I know what the OP said.

>>>>>>> before you dig yourself a deeper hole than you are already in.

>>>>>> You're the one desperately attempting to bullshit its way out of its predicament.

>>>>> Translation: Shit! He's right, better launch an attack.

>>>> Real Translation:  of your shit, I never ever could bullshit my way out of a wet paper bag.

>>>>>>> I'll draw your attention to the particular sentence which says:

>>>>>>> "I tried also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go."

>>>>>> Doesnt eliminate the possibility that the OP isnt putting the drive connector on the wrong way around with a non 
>>>>>> polarised connector on the cable.

>>>>> Indeed it doesn't but one can reasonable assume that he roughly knows what he is doing in terms of putting cables 
>>>>> on the right way round as the 40 pin cable works.

>>>> You dont even know where they are polarised and the 80 wire cable connectors arent.

>>>>> Please feel free to carry on clutching at random straws, you might hit on a solution by sheer luck eventually ;-)

>>>> You never did. He posted the info you wanted and it turned out that it didnt help.

>>>> Funny that.

>>> Hilarious that another poster was able to post the correct jumper
>>> settings for the drive because now we know what the OP has.

>> The OP could have checked that for itself if told to do that without knowing what drive it was.

> Wriggle, squirm.. ROFL!

You never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

>>>> Hilarious, actually.

>>>> Have fun bullshitting your way out of that.

>>> Have fun repeatedly swapping cables and wibbling about which way round they should go. It's really quite amusing to 
>>> watch.

>> Like I said, you never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

<reams of your puerile silly shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>