🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:09:45 GMT, "Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

>Meticulous route planning is needed. I will
>try to get it all figured out before I fly to L.A. on Friday.

Suggested itinerary:

Depart LA area early Saturday morning, stop in Santa Barbara (~2 hours
north, depending on where you start from) for breakfast.  SLO for
lunch, Hearst Castle tour ~4 pm (if you can get tickets on such short
notice, check today for availability).  Avoid eating at the cafeteria
next to the ticket booth.  Stay in San Simeon for the night.

Depart *early* Sunday morning for Big Sur.  Have breakfast at
Deetjen's.  <http://www.deetjens.com/>  Stop at Nepenthe for a brief
visit (incredible views), then continue up the coast to Point Lobos.
After a hike in point, have lunch at either the Highlands Inn, or go
into Carmel/Monterey.  17 mile drive optional (do the drive if you
don't stop at Point Lobos, but IMHO it's much more worthwhile to visit
PL on foot then just drive around Pebble Beach).  Then take 1 thru
Santa Cruz and up the coast, and have dinner at Duarte's.

If you don't want to drive the Devil's Slide area of 1 after dark,
then in Half Moon Bay take 92 east to 280 north up to SF.  If you
dawdle in the Carmel area and don't make it to the Santa Cruz before
dark, you might want to have dinner there (there are restaurants in
Capitola on the waterfront, or at the Santa Cruz wharf, and the Green
Valley Grill in Watsonville is a surprisingly wonderful restaurant in
a mostly farming community, but there is no view), and then take 17 to
85 to 280 home, and leave Hwy 1 between SCruz and SF for a daytime
trip.

This would be a wonderful 2 day trip with a new sporty car and your
family.  You can't go wrong with Deetjen's and Duarte's (both are
"family" friendly), these are not everyday restaurants -  you don't
get the opportunity to eat at places like these everyday.

jc

Allan Schaffer wrote:

> Plan B -  if you want to get _really_ scenic, you could take Hwy 1
> from SLO all the way up to San Francisco.  This will take all day
> plus.  I'd suggest it if you have time & the sun is out. ...

Highway 1 has beautiful scenery, when it's not foggy, but if you drive 
the whole thing in one day with stops for meals, this time of year most 
of the last part of the trip it'll be dark and you won't see much.

"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
news:XF0Ub.22$Ul3.8604842@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> "Allan Schaffer" wrote in message
> > Your first option for a good restaurant stop will be Santa Barbara,
> > about 1.5 hours from LA.
> > Next good stop is San Luis Obispo (SLO), 1.5 hours later.  I'd
> > recommend SLO over Santa Barbara if you only stop for one meal
> > during this part of the day.  If you drink wine, stop along the way for
> > wine tasting at any of the bajillion wineries...I'd also recommend (&
> > wish I could remember the name of) the european-style bistro next to
> > Mother's bar, on Higuera in SLO.

Between Santa Barabara and SLO (about .5 hour N of Santa Barbara)
there's a short turnoff that will get you to Solvang, famous for two things:

1) It's a Danish enclave in the US; you can have a smalltown Danish
tourist experience.  When I was a kid driving to LA, we always stopped here
for breakfast, there are numerous Danish bakeries and coffeehouses.

2) Just a little further up the same road is Neverland, the Michael Jackson
estate. My guess is that the Solvang coffee shops are still full of
Entertainment
Tonight producers.

Phil

"Phil Parkman" <pparkman@comcast.net> said..
>Between Santa Barabara and SLO (about .5 hour N of Santa Barbara)
>there's a short turnoff that will get you to Solvang, famous for two things:
>1) It's a Danish enclave in the US; you can have a smalltown Danish
>tourist experience.  When I was a kid driving to LA, we always stopped here
>for breakfast, there are numerous Danish bakeries and coffeehouses.

Solvang is a tourist trap.  Its sole purpose is to lure retirees into
buying little ceramic windmills for their grandchildren.

Allan
-- 
Allan Schaffer                                            allan@sgi.com
Silicon Graphics                                     http://www.sgi.com

mccomb@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote in message news:<bvnd1d$1qh6$1@machaut.medieval.org>...
> The Grapevine, which is a mountain pass just north of Los Angeles,
> is indeed spectacular, but that's a very short portion of the drive.
> The rest of I-5 is as dreary as a highway can possibly be.

Grapevine is the name of a town at the base of the mountains, in the
southern part of the central valley. I don't think the naming of the
town had anything to do with the road, did it? But, since the road
curves up like a grapevine, a lot of people call it The Grapevine. I
don't think Southern Californians refer to this stretch of road as The
Grapevine, though... am curious to know what others say out there.

Karen

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:24:20 GMT, "Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

>"Mark Shaw" <mshaw@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
>>> I suggest you drive up #101.
>>
>> If you do this, be sure to stop at the Madonna Inn outside
>> San Luis Obisbo (Obispo?) and take a piss.
>>
>> Really.
>
>Ok Mark, will do....may I ask why???
>
>
The restrooms are decorated like the guest rooms:
www.madonnainn.com

"Karen O'Mara" <ksoa650@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2d2a67aa.0402041138.541e22fe@posting.google.com...
> mccomb@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote in message
news:<bvnd1d$1qh6$1@machaut.medieval.org>...
> > The Grapevine, which is a mountain pass just north of Los Angeles,
> > is indeed spectacular, but that's a very short portion of the drive.
> > The rest of I-5 is as dreary as a highway can possibly be.
>
> Grapevine is the name of a town at the base of the mountains, in the
> southern part of the central valley. I don't think the naming of the
> town had anything to do with the road, did it? But, since the road
> curves up like a grapevine, a lot of people call it The Grapevine. I
> don't think Southern Californians refer to this stretch of road as The
> Grapevine, though... am curious to know what others say out there.
>

Having lived in LA for 20 years, I have often heard that stretch of road
referred to as the Grapevine, as in the Grapevine is closed due to heavy
wind.

> Karen

"Mark Shaw" <mshaw@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:z3AIABeR1D+a092yn@panix.com...
> In article <bvna9j$78v$1@reader2.panix.com>, Adrav <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:
> >  Aside from the fast food
> >restaurants in Button Willow and the Harris Ranch (the sight of
> >whose feed lots might turn you into a vegetarian), there isn't
> >much on #5.  If you want to make it a day's trip, I suggest
> >you drive up #101.
>
> If you do this, be sure to stop at the Madonna Inn outside
> San Luis Obisbo (Obispo?) and take a piss.

Be sure you do that in the restroom, please.


>
> Really.
>
>
> --
> Mark Shaw       contact info at homepage --> http://www.panix.com/~mshaw
> ========================================================================
> "It looks great at night. In the day, it winces like a hungover
> vampire."                                 -James Lileks, on Las Vegas

In article <oe0Ub.16$pW2.6852739@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote:
>"Mark Shaw" <mshaw@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
>>> I suggest you drive up #101.
>>
>> If you do this, be sure to stop at the Madonna Inn outside
>> San Luis Obisbo (Obispo?) and take a piss.
>>
>> Really.
>
>Ok Mark, will do....may I ask why???

http://www.urinal.net/madonna/

-- 
Mark Shaw       contact info at homepage --> http://www.panix.com/~mshaw
========================================================================
"How can any culture that has more lawyers 
than butchers call itself a civilization?"           - Alton Brown

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
> > Chill dude.
>
> Eat shit and die.

Laf. (no really, you made me laugh)

In the end when backed into a corner with no where to else
to turn to and nothing more to say to further your point, you
resort to.......a clich� ultimatum??  --Seriously, chill dude.--

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:04:27 GMT, "Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

>"Todd Michel McComb" <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote
>> Hearst really lived there, so it wasn't about attracking gawkers,

>I suspect it is mostly a source of pride for CA.

Not really.  It's just a unique place.  

Think of what you would do if you were one of the richest men in the
world and could buy *anything* you wanted, and you wanted the most
fantastic estate money could buy.  To give you an idea of the
unbelievable things to be seen at the castle, Hearst collected
*ceilings*.  He bought ceilings from churches and castles etc. in
Europe, had them removed and crated up and shipped to California,
hauled up the hill (probably in carts pulled by mules, this was ~60-80
years ago), and then installed in the various rooms in the castle.

I've toured a lot of famous estates, and I've never seen anything
nearly as opulent as the Hearst Castle.

>I may give a drive-by to decide if I want to go inside (assuming the
>hordes of visitors haven't filled up the guest tours) and check it out.

You can't see anything from the road that you can't see on the web.
The tours start out at the ticket booth by the highway and you ride in
a shuttle bus up a narrow road to the castle.  You won't have time for
a tour if you intend to make the drive from LA to SF in one day.

jc

Wow!  Unusual query and a lot of helpful replies.

I only know well parts of CA from about Carmel north, but even in the SF Bay
Area alone there are something like 14,000 restaurants (down slightly from a
couple years ago).  And I don't know I-5 well, I recall it as boring.

Highly unboring when I last sampled it (in 2002), if you like wine and could
stop for dinner (you'd then be tempted to stay overnight and continue later)
was the still-exceptional wine list at The Sardine Factory in Monterey,
unlikely name, good restaurant, the wine inventory a phenomenon, built up
painstakingly by a fanatic and his successor, Andrea (Immer?, now
independent), and faring well as lately as 2002.  (Especially if you liked
certain good wines not especially fashionable in the US and indeed
denigrated by one Mr. RP, a wine critic.)  Not far from the Asilomar beach
(where locals can be a little testy in the water at crowded times.)  (DON'T
drink and surf.)

Slightly south of there on Hwy 1 is Carmel with a concentrated gamut of very
genuine small restaurants in its fashionable little downtown, The Grill? (On
Ocean Ave) has pleased many for lunch, including vegetarians.  Bunch of
other places scattered around there, many of them share owners.

But all this is coastal, well off Hwy 5 of course.  By this point Hwy 1 on
the coast has become reasonably brisk northbound, special golf weekends
excepted, and is one of the more direct routes to SF even if you remain on
it; you might shave some time (and miss some sights) by cutting inland at 17
or 156 and continuing up 280 or 101.

You really need several weeks though, even to begin.

Good luck!      -- Max


"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
news:3METb.614$JA5.75@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> This weekend I'll be making a road trip along Hwy 5
> from L.A to San Francisco. I would like to hear any
> advice on good eateries between them that I can try.

In article <IeiUb.30$CI6.2300049@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
 "Simon Belmont" wrote:
> "Tim May" wrote regarding Hearst Castle:  
> 
> > Your opinions from _photographs_ are a silly basis for judgment.
> 
> Sorry I struck a nerve with you Tim, I would of not formed such an
> opinion had I not read what others who have been there commented.
> Indeed, I didn't have any desire to look up pictures until Todd's post.
> 
> >> I suspect it is mostly a source of pride for CA.
> >
> > My, aren't you just precious?!
> > ...........With your attitude I recommend you just
> > take the I-5 route you originally planned to take.
> 
> I rest my case. You've single-handedly proved my assertion.
> Instead of a blanket "pride for CA" I should of stated that it
> was a source of pride for some Californians. That's better...

   To be sure, many Californians are very proud of San Simeon's 
architect, Julia Morgan, rather than the results of the kook who built 
the place.  Viewing _Citizen Kane_ is often recommended before visting.

 - Mark

ObDFWFood:  Sorry to learn of Casa Dominguez's demise.

-- 
Mark Mellin                      San Mateo Village, CA  94403-2918  USA

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:46:32 -0800, "Max Hauser"
<maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

>but even in the SF Bay
>Area alone there are something like 14,000 restaurants 

IIRC, that's the number of restaurants (# determined by those listed
with the health department?) in SF alone.  I remember reading a story
some years ago in the Chronicle [1] about how it would take $bignum
years for a single resturant reviewer to eat at all of them if the
reviewer ate at a different restaurant for every meal, 3x a day, 7
days a week, etc.

jc

[1] explaining why they were unable to review everyone's favorite
local haunt and noting that it took 2 or 3 visits per review, so that
they didn't judge a restaurant based on a single visit.

Simon Belmont <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

>"Todd Michel McComb" <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote

>> Hearst really lived there, so it wasn't about attracking gawkers,
>> but it _was_ about vanity.  There are some interesting pieces there,
>> and some interesting historical anecdotes, but the overall aesthetics
>> of the place is simply awful: totally garish, with way too many
>> pieces put together haphazardly, no overall theme or broader design
>> symbiosis, etc.  It's about as trashy as millions and millions of
>> dollars of architecture and art can be.  Still, it *is* an 
>> experience, and the surrounding countryside is very nice.

> After seeing a few exterior pictures of the "castle" and all
> its auxillary buildings I must agree with you: the place is
> train-wreck. straight up.  At the same time it might be cool see
> it for myself to dissect what all the fuss comes from. I suspect
> it is mostly a source of pride for CA.

It is the work of reknowned architect Julia Morgan, combined
with the eccentricity of Hearst himself, who lavishly funded
Morgan to travel to europe in search of pieces of structures
and art to bring back and incorporate into Hearst Castle.
If you even a passing interest in architecture, you probably
want to see the place once.  The swimming pool is amazing
(and the pool at another Morgan building, the Berkeley City Club,
is a smaller version of similar design).  It is certainly
full of aesthetic risks.

Morgan also did the Officer's Club at nearby Ft. Hunter-Liggett.
(Which I can't remember -- did it survive the large fire
there a few years back, or was it destroyed?)

Steve

"Max Hauser" <maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote in message
>if you like wine....

Yes, actually I enjoy wine very much. I only drink reds. When I
drink it with food, I don't adhere to conventions that say I should
be having a white or blush. In my world there are only reds. I'de
like to visit a winery/vinyard along the way. The thing is, I know
precisely zilch about California wines. So instead of getting into
a whole other discussion about various wineries and vinyards to
visit I decided that if I happen across one (on the way), I'd stop
and check it out. Hopefully there will be one on whatever route
I take that has visible signage from the highway. If not, oh well.
I didn't know what I was looking for anyway.  :-)

Thanks for all the input Max!

["Followup-To:" header set to ba.food.]

> Grapevine is the name of a town at the base of the mountains, in the
> southern part of the central valley. I don't think the naming of the
> town had anything to do with the road, did it?

As best my memory serves, there was never a town at the base of the
Grapevine, as the once brutally steep grade, which used to be Hwy 99, from
the valley floor to the top of Wheeler ridge, was universally known to
Central Valley denizens.  My family lived in Bakersfield when I was a wee
tyke and bi-weekly trips to visit relatives in SoCal left me with marvelous
memories of The Grapevine.  

Back when the Grapevine grade was a 2, sometimes 3, sometimes 4, lane
undivided highway, it started at the billiard-table-flat Valley floor and
went up an arrow straight grade for about a mile or two.  At the end of that
straightaway, just before the curves of the section that was a terror for
truckers began, there was a roadside cafe-gas station on the East side of
the highway.  For some reason I seem to recall it was called the Grapevine
Cafe, but I can't say for sure. I remember it being there because I always
wanted my parents to stop there so I could gaze out in wonder at the great
vista of the vast Valley floor visible at that point of the grade.  It's
long gone, now, not even being there back in '75, the last time I traveled
that route.

I just talked to my dad, he being a long-time veteran of the Grapevine, and
he told me that little cafe got taken out by a runaway semi.  He assured me
The Grapevine did, in fact, refer only to that once infamous grade, and not
the rest of the Ridgeline.

nb

In article <rUkUb.13096$qm5.5810@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>,
Simon Belmont <123@abc.xyz> wrote:
>
>Yes, actually I enjoy wine very much. I only drink reds. When I
>drink it with food, I don't adhere to conventions that say I should
>be having a white or blush. In my world there are only reds. I'de
>like to visit a winery/vinyard along the way. The thing is, I know
>precisely zilch about California wines. So instead of getting into
>a whole other discussion about various wineries and vinyards to
>visit I decided that if I happen across one (on the way), I'd stop
>and check it out. Hopefully there will be one on whatever route
>I take that has visible signage from the highway. If not, oh well.
>I didn't know what I was looking for anyway.  :-)


If you take 101 then you will run across many wineries in the SB/Los
Olivos area and the Paso Robles area. Some are indeed practically off of
the road. I don't recommend stopping if you're going to drive another
few hours, though.


Dimitri

"JC Dill" in  news:d8l320dspoce3slskueffcfcgj3ipjgp5b@4ax.com...
>  "Max Hauser" wrote:
>
> >but even in the SF Bay
> >Area alone there are something like 14,000 restaurants
>
> IIRC, that's the number of restaurants (# determined by those listed
> with the health department?) in SF alone.  I remember reading a story
> some years ago in the Chronicle [1] about how it would take $bignum
> years for a single resturant reviewer to eat at all of them ..

Back when we had a central index online in the Bay Area about 14,500 were
listed.  It may have excluded fast food etc..  What was remarkable was that
nearly half of them were in the city of San Francisco, which has less than
20% of the population of the eight contiguous counties.  SF serves as the
de-facto downtown for the adjacent counties (as a wine-tasting friend put
it, who is a senior professor of humanities at some school in Palo Alto and
a shrewd observer of the Bay Area since the 1960s).  When I dined in SF in
the 1980s with the Popes (not the popes, the Popes -- ba.food's Steve Pope,
for one) it was remarked that SF's seating capacity for restaurants exceeded
its own population by about 20%, which still does not help you get a table
for lunch at Tadich Grill.

A great bit of memorabilia on that old restaurant, by the way, reproduced on
P. 106 in John Briscoe's 2002 book about the Tadich (ISBN 1580084257), is
Herb Caen's column from 17 Feb 1970 in which Bn. Philippe de Rothschild
became impatient waiting for lunch there (after asking to be taken to a
"place that's typically old San Francisco") and said to his host "I dislike
doing things like this, but perhaps it would help if you told them who I
am."  "I dislike telling you this," his friend replied, "but I did, 15
minutes ago."

Since I'm on history here, youse gastronomes surely recognize the name
Katherine Golden Bitting.  Her 1939 _Gastronomic Bibliogaphy_ is the
standard US work of its type (competing with a few others if not the
towering Vicaire, 1890).  But what's important is (1) the book was based on
the Bitting collection of cookbooks in SF, later forming the nucleus of the
Library of Congress cookbook section; and (2) an address in Palo Alto houses
considerably more cookbooks than the Bitting Collection did, and most of
them are for sale, some of you may know it already, but if you are seriously
interested _email_ me and I'll put you in touch.

Finally, to return to Popes, I was researching the _history_ of wine
information online -- I may post some of it later, but I am always looking
for good wine Web sites, feel free to post or mail suggestions (the best
known in WWW may be those of the Wine Spectator, erobertparker.com,
burghound.com, and westcoastwine.net; I post to the last of those).  An
unexpected upshot of the historical research is that the original wine
commentators online (since 1983, keeping newsgroups alive, fending off
shutdowns and mergers and divisor-newbies over the years) seem to be Mr Pope
and me.

In article <uCiUb.38$jo7.5082175@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, Simon
Belmont <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

> In the end when backed into a corner with no where to else
> to turn to and nothing more to say to further your point, you
> resort to.......a clich� ultimatum??  --Seriously, chill dude.--
> 

You're a pompous oaf, with an obviously fake name--"Simon Belmont," as
befitting your "123@abc.xyz" address. You troll the group with
fake-sounding requests, announce that yes, indeed, you do indeed think
Hearst Castle is simply gauche, then you troll some more.

Personally, I doubt you are even planning to drive to SF. My hunch is
this is yet another of the "gather eating place recommendations for our
magazine article" scams.

--Tim May

In article <bvsnfu$56v$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
D. Gerasimatos <dim@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>If you take 101 then you will run across many wineries in the
>SB/Los Olivos area and the Paso Robles area.

I've already noted my fondness for Paso Robles, and the area has
very interesting wineries.  One favorite is Justin.  The restaurant
I noted, Villa Creek, has one of the most eclectic wine lists
anywhere, a fact which might be lost on you if you don't know
California wines very well in general.

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
news:040220041906128540%

> Eat shit and die.

You omitted... "ObFood."

Ciccio

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote
> You're a pompous oaf, with an obviously fake name
> --"Simon Belmont," as befitting your "123@abc.xyz"
> address. You troll the group with fake-sounding
> requests, announce that yes, indeed, you do indeed
> think Hearst Castle is simply gauche, then you troll
> some more.

<confused>  And I am supposed to be the "troll" here?

> Personally, I doubt you are even planning to drive to SF.
> My hunch is this is yet another of the "gather eating place
> recommendations for our magazine article" scams.

And I doubt your class-clown antics are appreciated here.

You can be sure I'll be visiting CA this weekend, my future
may be there. Among the several purposes of this trip is to
tour a couple law schools.

More likely than not, you've looked up my previous posts
on the usenets and decided to try butting heads with me. I
don't have the time to make you see stars right now so find
another butt buddy for your time/effort wasting buffoonery.

OT:

"Max Hauser" <maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote in message
> An unexpected upshot of the historical research is that the original
> wine commentators online (since 1983, keeping newsgroups alive,
> fending off shutdowns and mergers and divisor-newbies over the
> years) seem to be Mr Pope and me.

I took a look at your wine related post from Oct. 7, 1983. I noticed
"UC - Berkeley" in your signature. You were/are faculty I presume?
My younger sister (who I'll be visiting this weekend) is graduating
from UC Berkeley next year. I was going to sit in during one of
her classes, Laura Nader's Anthropology of Law, but I have a full
load of classes on the same days of the week.

Anyhow, you have been posting since before I knew newsgroups
even existed.  I guess back then it was posted to a BBS network?

On 4 Feb 2004 12:49:52 -0800, geoffm@u1.netgate.net (Geoff Miller)
wrote:
>Huh?  Haven't you ever heard that song "Hot Rod Lincoln"
>by Commander Cody And the Lost Planet Airmen?:
>
>	Pulled out of San Pedro late one night
>	The moon and the stars was shinin' bright
>	We was drivin' up Grapevine Hill
>	Passing cars like they was standing still

I thought that was like Western Avenue.

But of course the highway now Interstate 5 through Tejon Pass and down
towards Buttonwillow has always been called the Grapevine.  The Old
Road is still available through much of the pass, there was a Huell
Howser (sp?) show on it.  It was much more winding and vine-y.

J.

"Simon Belmont" in  news:RipUb.13128$wo6.3461@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> OT:
>
> I took a look at your wine related post from Oct. 7, 1983.

Grad student days.  Also grew up in Berkeley.  Many more interesting bits of
info by _email_ if you like, I could add you to a small private mailing list
or two on food and wine.  (No spam, no flamers -- in summary, no horseshit.)

> Anyhow, you have been posting since before I knew newsgroups
> even existed.  I guess back then it was posted to a BBS network?

You may set experienced users' teeth on edge with that acronym.
(Clueless-newbie idiom from the late 1980s was to call newsgroups "this
board" or "BBS").  "Bulletin-Board Services" were a particular
(special-purpose) flavor of dial-up timesharing computer service.
(Timesharing services have been demonstrably popular in the US since the
early 1970s.)

Nutshell history:

The newsgroups were set up to use the Internet when possible but
store-and-forward by separate telephone protocols (from late 1970s) as
necessary so that Internet access was never prerequisite to them.  They were
accessed by many people also in Internet-connected facilities (universities,
companies, govt agencies like National Bureau of Standards).  For the last
20 years, newsgroup access and other Internet capabilities have been pretty
universally available to people in the US (either via Internet or by dial-up
access to timesharing, which required no personal computer, only a
terminal).  You did however need to (1) know they existed and (2) know how
to use them, by various newsreaders and other tools, mostly text-based.  The
pointy-clicky Internet tools (HTTP/HTML protocols) came later and helped to
spread the popularity of the Internet (including to people who have never
even read the basic introduction RFC1855, still universally available and
recommended by all literate Internet tutorials).  Internet history is very
routinely misapprehended and misrepresented by people unaware of anything
occurring there before they happened to hear of it.  I said in print in 1999
that even in retrospective accounts, many people seem to prefer to assert
"the Internet did not yet exist" rather than "I didn't know of it."  Anyway
that's my nutshell account for what it's worth.

Copyright 2004.

"Ciccio" <francescod@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Y2dUb.224522$na.362546@attbi_s04>...
> I read somewhere years ago,  that "The Grapevine" got its name because, in
> the 19th century, people traveling through parts of that area had to hack
> their way through grapevines.
> 
> Many people in SoCal call it The Grapevine. Certainly when there's a
> newsworthy event around The Grapevine, LaLaLand news stations refer to it as
> The Grapevine.

Well, much grass for setting me straight on that one. 

Now, another imponderable of mine -- is it the Santanas or the Santa
Anas (wind from the east).

Karen

In article <2d2a67aa.0402050923.3b3f889e@posting.google.com>,
Karen O'Mara <ksoa650@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Well, much grass for setting me straight on that one. 
>
>Now, another imponderable of mine -- is it the Santanas or the Santa
>Anas (wind from the east).


Santa Anas, despite claims to the contrary


Dimitri

In article <2d2a67aa.0402050923.3b3f889e@posting.google.com>, Karen
O'Mara <ksoa650@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Ciccio" <francescod@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:<Y2dUb.224522$na.362546@attbi_s04>...
> > I read somewhere years ago,  that "The Grapevine" got its name because, in
> > the 19th century, people traveling through parts of that area had to hack
> > their way through grapevines.
> > 
> > Many people in SoCal call it The Grapevine. Certainly when there's a
> > newsworthy event around The Grapevine, LaLaLand news stations refer to it as
> > The Grapevine.
> 
> Well, much grass for setting me straight on that one. 
> 
> Now, another imponderable of mine -- is it the Santanas or the Santa
> Anas (wind from the east).


<http://www.fritzliess.com/movabletype/archives/001360.html>

In article <fbfUb.18856$GB7.4058@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, "Simon
Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote:


> I've heard a number of recommendations here to visit Hearst Castle.
> I always thought it was a tourist trap made even more tourist trappy
> by Awnuld's state park fee hike. It's just a big estate right? Also, is
> the estate's grandeur not attributed to its intent to bring in visitors?


It was built to be a weekend residence for William Randalph Hearst.  He
did not build it to bring in visitors, but to impress the few that he
invited.


I read an interesting (but poorly written) book about the place written by
Patty Hearst, a relative and very famous kidnapee.


ObFood:  Hearst set a very fancy table with very fancy food.  However, he
insisted that a bottle of catsup always be present on the table.  My
understanding is that when you take the tour that includes the dining
room, a bottle of catsup will be there.

-- 
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
dabel@sonic.net

Simon Belmont wrote:

> I've heard a number of recommendations here to visit Hearst Castle.
> I always thought it was a tourist trap made even more tourist trappy
> by Awnuld's state park fee hike. It's just a big estate right?

In the way that St. Peter's is just a big church, and the Louvre just a 
big museum.

> Also, is
> the estate's grandeur not attributed to its intent to bring in visitors?

Nope. You ever see the movie "Citizen Kane"?

"Karen O'Mara" <ksoa650@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Now, another imponderable of mine -- is it the Santanas or the Santa
> Anas (wind from the east).

Definitely Santa Ana.

The BA/Central Valley counterpart is the "Diablo Wind."

Ciccio

"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message news:<fbfUb.18856$GB7.4058@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>...
> 
> I've heard a number of recommendations here to visit Hearst Castle.
> I always thought it was a tourist trap made even more tourist trappy
> by Awnuld's state park fee hike. It's just a big estate right? Also, is
> the estate's grandeur not attributed to its intent to bring in visitors?
> There is nothing wrong with spectacles built to fit a purpose, but to
> self-spectacularize for the sole purpose of being a spectacle is vain.
> Maybe I'm totally off-base...I've never been there or experienced it.
> Perhaps it represents/symbolizes some important historical element
> I don't know about. I will not knock it until I try it, but my casual
> observation tells me not to value its "importance" all too heavily.

The Winchester Mystery House is 'tourist trappy.' Hearst Castle is
more interesting. That guy, Hearst, was really something else...

Karen

Way OT:

"Max Hauser" <maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote in message

>I could add you to a small private mailing list or two on food and wine.

sim0n_belm0ntNOSPAM@NOSPAMyahoo.com , thanks.

> > Anyhow, you have been posting since before I knew newsgroups
> > even existed.  I guess back then it was posted to a BBS network?
> You may set experienced users' teeth on edge with that acronym.

Perhaps, but to be clear I said "BBS network".  I am well aware
what a BBS is (a had a few sys-op friends). In the absence of the
widely deployed relatively fast system in place now, I thought that
perhaps the different BBS's formed a sort of network by sharing
message posts from various BBS servers. It was just a thought.

Somewhere I still have my first 12/2400 baud modem and
also the baddest boy of its time......a Multitech 9600 baud.

I first experienced the closest thing to modern internet when my
family got a charter membership to Prodigy in the mid-late 80's.
We had that for a few years and I remember it's slow evolution
from an exclusive content provider to an interface for the outside.

> "the Internet did not yet exist" rather than "I didn't know of it."

Yes, when dealing with things that I know were around in some
form but before my time I'll just plead ignorance. However....as
Todd pointed out the definition of "internet" can be a source of
miscommunication. For me the only definition is the network that
was started / put into place decades ago for our national defense
purposes. It could be argued that it is more practical to consider
the internet existent when regular people had regular access to it.

OT:

"Robert Lauriston" <robert@lauriston.com> wrote
> In the way that St. Peter's is just a big church,
> and the Louvre just a  big museum.

I <sort of> see your point, but I personally wouldn't
compare a man's multi-million dollar excess to such
things as a historic cathedral and the Louvre. Just me.

>You ever see the movie "Citizen Kane"?

Nope, the only classic movies I've watched are the
ones forced upon me by schools while growing up.

In article <mTwUb.19243$iv7.9181@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, Simon
Belmont <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

> Perhaps, but to be clear I said "BBS network".  I am well aware
> what a BBS is (a had a few sys-op friends). In the absence of the
> widely deployed relatively fast system in place now, I thought that
> perhaps the different BBS's formed a sort of network by sharing
> message posts from various BBS servers. It was just a thought.

Bulletin board systems were sometimes linked to FidoNet but often were
just local sites that local users dialed into.

The Usenet started in the late 70s as a set of newsgroups used for
sharing informaton about "the Net." (Variously called ARPANet, etc.)

My first ARPANet account was in 1973, when only a handful of campuses
and a few contractors were linked.


> 
> Somewhere I still have my first 12/2400 baud modem and
> also the baddest boy of its time......a Multitech 9600 baud.

I have no idea what a "baddest boy" is, but I thought the Racal-Vadic
modem I had in the late 70s was impressive.


> > "the Internet did not yet exist" rather than "I didn't know of it."
> 
> Yes, when dealing with things that I know were around in some
> form but before my time I'll just plead ignorance. However....as
> Todd pointed out the definition of "internet" can be a source of
> miscommunication. For me the only definition is the network that
> was started / put into place decades ago for our national defense
> purposes. It could be argued that it is more practical to consider
> the internet existent when regular people had regular access to it.

Most of the "Internet was built to withstand a nuclear war" jive is
just that, journalistic jive. I'm not a historian of the ARPANet, or
its later incarnations, but most credit the development to some
packet-switching academic research in the mid-60s. One such network was
the ALOHAnet (or AlohaNet, whatever) in, of course, Hawaii. 

Folks like Glenn Culler at UCSB and several corporations and some
campuses in California and nearby states were involved. Small grants
from ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency, later called DARPA as
part of the Nixon/Mansfield focus on "defense," and later changed back
to ARPA) funded the small initial nodes. More campuses were added, more
government research sites joined.

It is fair to say that the ARPANet was both a testbed for experimenting
with packet-switching protocols and devices and for universities and
other academic (non-corporate, unless part of the projects) researchers
to communcate amongst themselves (it became this later, with the
success of e-mail and Usenet).

Later, TCP/IP came along. More corporate involvement. More money. And
the Usenet changed as well, with the Great Renaming, the OKing of
"commercial speech" (circa the late 80s), and of course the new
moniker, the Internet.

Meanwhile, the Defense Department had their own independent, generally
secure networks. This went way back, to things like AUTOVON, the
Defense Communications System, the DSCS constellation of satellites,
etc. (I did some advising of the Pentagon about DSCS attack
vulnerabilities in the late 70s).

Meanwhile, journalists were happily babbling about how the Net was
developed in order to provide the country with a communication system
after a nuclear war. Hilarious.

--Tim May

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
> > Somewhere I still have my first 12/2400 baud modem and
> > also the baddest boy of its time......a Multitech 9600 baud.
> I have no idea what a "baddest boy" is, but I thought the Racal
> -Vadic modem I had in the late 70s was impressive.

Phear the implied generation gap. You could of taken that
statement two ways. Going one way, my response to you
is  to focus in on "of its time",  not before or after, at that
particular point. My response to you using another possible
interpretation is: you obviously know what a "baddest boy"
is since you mentioned your circa-70's "impressive" modem.
Irrelevant or contradictory, take your pick.  ;-)

> Most of the "Internet was built to withstand a nuclear war" jive is
> just that, journalistic jive. I'm not a historian of the ARPANet....

And neither am I. Additionally, I haven't lived through those times.
I didn't talk of nuke wars. Don't load unintended meaning on my
behalf. The country needed a robust communication network. The
nuke thing comes when some people are explaining why it needed
to be a redundant system. There are many different ways to think
of why/when/where the internet took form or even what it actually
is. What about the telegraph? I know enough to know of my own
limitations on this topic. Sure dude, whatever you say...Aloha and
word and stuff to you too. Also note that I don't capitalize the
Net or Internet. That in itself can imply a certain properness to its
origin and/or current state of existence. I'll stay out of that one.....

In article <U3yUb.19503$YL7.11448@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, Simon
Belmont <123@abc.xyz> wrote:

> And neither am I. Additionally, I haven't lived through those times.
> I didn't talk of nuke wars. Don't load unintended meaning on my
> behalf. The country needed a robust communication network. The
> nuke thing comes when some people are explaining why it needed
> to be a redundant system. 

Point to point communications, a la variations on the phone system, is
actually more redundant to loss of nodes than the current Internet is,
where the idea of many packet-switching nodes has been largely replaced
by a shrinking number of "hubs" like MAE-West and MAE-East. Knock out
these hubs, with either a backhoe or a terrorist bomb and a lot of the
Net slows to a crawl. 

John McCarthy had a good article a while back on why the phone system
model for e-mail would have been a much better and more scalable
approach than the supposedly redundant "store and forward" hub model.



> Sure dude, whatever you say...Aloha and
> word and stuff to you too. Also note that I don't capitalize the
> Net or Internet. That in itself can imply a certain properness to its
> origin and/or current state of existence. I'll stay out of that one.....

I'm not "dude," and I I don't speak ebonics, so saying "word" to me is
silly.

No wonder you've been invited into Max Hauser's special, precious
mailing list for a few of his pretentious foodie colleagues.


--Tim May

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message

> I'm not "dude," and I I don't speak ebonics,
> so saying "word" to me is silly.

You are right. Shame on me to think that you would take
playful figures of speech for well, playful figures of speech.
You can be a strange sort of serious sam,  Mr. Tim May.

Judging by your posts, I thought you were bestowed with a
certain sense of humor. Shame on me again, you were being
for real dawg. ;p  and one more time ;p and for good luck ;p

> No wonder you've been invited into Max
> Hauser's special, precious mailing list for a
> few of his pretentious foodie colleagues.

I don't know Max, but I do know about how quickly people
can apply the pretentious label. In a strange way, behaviour
like that is pretentous itself. I think of it as a variable mixture
of ignorance and envy. --I'm speaking generally, not of Tim.

"Karen O'Mara" <ksoa650@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2d2a67aa.0402050923.3b3f889e@posting.google.com...
> "Ciccio" <francescod@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<Y2dUb.224522$na.362546@attbi_s04>...
> > I read somewhere years ago,  that "The Grapevine" got its name because,
in
> > the 19th century, people traveling through parts of that area had to
hack
> > their way through grapevines.
> >
> > Many people in SoCal call it The Grapevine. Certainly when there's a
> > newsworthy event around The Grapevine, LaLaLand news stations refer to
it as
> > The Grapevine.
>
> Well, much grass for setting me straight on that one.
>
> Now, another imponderable of mine -- is it the Santanas or the Santa
> Anas (wind from the east).

Both, the Devil's wind and/or wind from the east.

>
> Karen

"Simon Belmont" in news:zxzUb.13221$jX2.3190@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> "Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
>
> > I'm not "dude," and  I don't speak ebonics,
> > so saying "word" to me is silly.
> ...
>
> > No wonder you've been invited into Max
> > Hauser's special, precious mailing list for a
> > few of his pretentious foodie colleagues.

Excellent!  Just the name I was looking for.  (I missed the original -- 
can't see from that source, don't have time -- so I almost missed this!)

Expect further details presently on the
Max's-special-precious-list-for-a-few-pretentious-foodie-colleagues mail
server.  (Automated.)   [-:

"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
news:3METb.614$JA5.75@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> This weekend I'll be making a road trip along Hwy 5
> from L.A to San Francisco. I would like to hear any
> advice on good eateries between them that I can try.

In 'N Out is about your best option on I5.

Also, in 1978 the Sambo's in Needles had
good hash browns, but it's off your route. Say
hi to Spike if you get to Needles.

In article <8YZUb.17351$uM2.12046@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Steven M. Scharf <scharf.steven@linkearth.net> wrote:

> "Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
> news:3METb.614$JA5.75@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> > This weekend I'll be making a road trip along Hwy 5
> > from L.A to San Francisco. I would like to hear any
> > advice on good eateries between them that I can try.
> 
> In 'N Out is about your best option on I5.
> 
> Also, in 1978 the Sambo's in Needles had
> good hash browns, but it's off your route. Say
> hi to Spike if you get to Needles.

Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's," belying a deep
ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to change its
name (and eventually liquidate, as I recall...only one "Sambo's"
remains, in Santa Barbara). 

--Tim May

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
news:060220042319239185%timcmay@removethis.got.net...

>
> Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's," belying a deep
> ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to change its
> name (and eventually liquidate, as I recall...only one "Sambo's"
> remains, in Santa Barbara).
>

How could the reaction to the name be niggardly?

Are you hoping to get a reaction to the word "niggardly"
by finding people who are even more ignorant of its meaning?

Tim May wrote:

> In article <8YZUb.17351$uM2.12046@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Steven M. Scharf <scharf.steven@linkearth.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
>>news:3METb.614$JA5.75@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>>This weekend I'll be making a road trip along Hwy 5
>>>from L.A to San Francisco. I would like to hear any
>>>advice on good eateries between them that I can try.
>>
>>In 'N Out is about your best option on I5.
>>
>>Also, in 1978 the Sambo's in Needles had
>>good hash browns, but it's off your route. Say
>>hi to Spike if you get to Needles.
> 
> 
> Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's," belying a deep
> ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to change its
> name (and eventually liquidate, as I recall...only one "Sambo's"
> remains, in Santa Barbara). 
> 
> --Tim May

Hell-Aunt Jemima became Star Jones

Bob Barnett wrote:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > In article <8YZUb.17351$uM2.12046@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > Steven M. Scharf <scharf.steven@linkearth.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Simon Belmont" <123@abc.xyz> wrote in message
> >>news:3METb.614$JA5.75@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> >>
> >>>This weekend I'll be making a road trip along Hwy 5
> >>>from L.A to San Francisco. I would like to hear any
> >>>advice on good eateries between them that I can try.
> >>
> >>In 'N Out is about your best option on I5.
> >>
> >>Also, in 1978 the Sambo's in Needles had
> >>good hash browns, but it's off your route. Say
> >>hi to Spike if you get to Needles.
> >
> >
> > Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's," belying a deep
> > ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to change its
> > name (and eventually liquidate, as I recall...only one "Sambo's"
> > remains, in Santa Barbara).
> >
> > --Tim May
>
> Hell-Aunt Jemima became Star Jones

 True and false. The name was a contraction of the founders names but they
hit upon it after seeing the book. Didn't the restaurants feature a Black
character?


--
   To reply via e-mail please delete one c from paccbell

In article <102a6ss5m05i831@corp.supernews.com>, Sloopy
<sloopy@hangon.xyz> wrote:

> In article <40251117.84FBD05E@paccbell.net>,
>  George Grapman <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
> 
> >  True and false. The name was a contraction of the founders names but they
> > hit upon it after seeing the book. Didn't the restaurants feature a Black
> > character?
> 
> No. 
> 
> Sambo was clearly Indian at the restaurants. He even wore a turban!
> 

Just so. But negroes took offense wherever and whenever they could,
back in the late 60s (and continuing to this very day). The homosexuals
learned some tricks from this book.

--Tim May

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
news:060220042319239185%

> Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's,"

I don't think stingy people cared one way or the other, so long as the food
remained inexpensive.

> belying a deep ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to
> change its  name

The objection to the name had absolutely nothing to do with the name's
orgin. Rather,  the objection was to what the name had become. Some Whites,
belying a deep ignorance of the orgin of the name, believed Sambo was
African and over time caused Sambo to becomea racial epithet for Blacks.
Thus, many people eventually found the name objectionable. Therefore, it
seems, Sambo's wanted the patronage of those who found the name
objectionable.

Ciccio

Tim May wrote:

> Alas, the niggardly reaction to the name "Sambo's," belying a deep
> ignorance of the origin of the name, caused that chain to change its
> name (and eventually liquidate, as I recall...only one "Sambo's"
> remains, in Santa Barbara). 
> 
> --Tim May

The word "sambo" came from American Spanish and means Negro or mulatto.

The restaurant name was a concatenation of the nicknames of the 
founders, Sam Battistone and Newell "Bo" Bohnett. When they discovered 
the old children's book Little Black Sambo, by Helen Bannerman, they 
adopted the character as their mascot. Despite its Indian setting, 
Bannerman's Sambo was a black caricature.

The restaurant never changed its name.

What was that you were saying about deep ignorance?

On 2004-02-07, Robert Lauriston <robert@lauriston.com> wrote:
>
> The restaurant never changed its name.

Yep, died of mismanagement and major debt according to sfba news I heard at
the time.  The one in Livermore simply closed, name intact, remaining
deserted for some time.  The building is still around, having gone through
several incarnations.  The most recent was as Baker's Square, which only
recently closed, for reasons I'm not aware.  

nb