🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, John Cooley wrote:
>... 
> What do I have to look forward to?  I'm in a generation where nobody really
> cares about anyone or anything other than themselves.  Alchoholism, drug
> use, and divorce are very common place.  When the going gets tough, nobody
> truely expects their significant other to stick around.  And the only
> people who aren't afflicted by the divorce/booze/drugs/self-first problem
> seem to be the religious fundamentals who completely give up any sense of
> free thought or individuality.  (Sort of damned if you do and damned if
> you don't.)  When my parents got married it was for life; when I get married
> I have to hope that I got a good enough pre-nup plus wonder what the state's
> divorce laws might be if I lose the coin toss determining whether my
> marriage makes it or not.  I find it all very depressing.
> 
>   - John

I'm decidedly NOT a fundamentalist, I'm not christian at all... and if I 
got married it would be with my expectation of building something that 
would last for life. I expected my previous living-together relationship 
to last for life - it lasted 12 years - and that was without promises or 
vows.

I'm looking at things sort of the way you are. Most of the men I meet are
not into commitment, or want open marriages, or already have had enough
kids, or are looking for someone much younger than I am, or are already
committed to someone else, or they would expect me to be "traditional" 
which I'm not, or they're into whips and chains as a lifestyle (although
most of those aren't looking for marriage anyhow) or they are seriously
religious and it would be difficult to be married to them and not be part
of their religion. 

I'm glad my cats are into lifetime commitments. At least it gives some 
continuity to one relationship!

--L

In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960420152114.12883A-100000@mv.mv.com>,
-=Weezel=-  <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, John Cooley wrote:
>>... 
>> What do I have to look forward to?  I'm in a generation where nobody really
>> cares about anyone or anything other than themselves.  Alchoholism, drug
>> use, and divorce are very common place.  When the going gets tough, nobody
>> truely expects their significant other to stick around.  And the only
>> people who aren't afflicted by the divorce/booze/drugs/self-first problem
>> seem to be the religious fundamentals who completely give up any sense of
>> free thought or individuality.  (Sort of damned if you do and damned if
>> you don't.)  When my parents got married it was for life; when I get married
>> I have to hope that I got a good enough pre-nup plus wonder what the state's
>> divorce laws might be if I lose the coin toss determining whether my
>> marriage makes it or not.  I find it all very depressing.
>> 
>>   - John
>
		[snip]

>I'm looking at things sort of the way you are. Most of the men I meet are
>not into commitment, or want open marriages, or already have had enough
>kids, or are looking for someone much younger than I am, or are already
>committed to someone else, or they would expect me to be "traditional" 
>which I'm not, or they're into whips and chains as a lifestyle (although
>most of those aren't looking for marriage anyhow) or they are seriously
>religious and it would be difficult to be married to them and not be part
>of their religion. 

This is *my* generation?  Ewwww....

				Robert
-- 
--------------------------
Robert Becker                                      robertb@world.std.com
Erstwhile bicyclist, avid father, longtime breather

Just to throw a spark of hope into a bleak thread:

John Cooley (jcooley@world.std.com) wrote:

: What do I have to look forward to?  I'm in a generation where nobody really
: cares about anyone or anything other than themselves.  Alchoholism, drug
: use, and divorce are very common place.  When the going gets tough, nobody
: truely expects their significant other to stick around.  And the only
: people who aren't afflicted by the divorce/booze/drugs/self-first problem
: seem to be the religious fundamentals who completely give up any sense of
: free thought or individuality.  (Sort of damned if you do and damned if
: you don't.)  


I know you complained in another thread about being annoyed at people who 
got you on "details" (like saying nobody when you'd mean most people I 
take it? ;) I happen to think, at least in this case, it's worth being 
careful.

There *are* a lot of narcisstic people out there. always have been.

You're quite right about drugs, alcohol and dovrce. What you're wrong 
about is there not being anyone left who isn't afflicted by one or the other.

*smile* take heart - there are people. Believe me. I know some of them - 
and I bet you do too. (ok, I hope you do!)

: When my parents got married it was for life; when I get married
: I have to hope that I got a good enough pre-nup plus wonder what the state's
: divorce laws might be if I lose the coin toss determining whether my
: marriage makes it or not.  I find it all very depressing.

but would you really want to stay in a marriage that makes you miserable?
I *do* think that a lot of people get married who 
shouldn't. They're just not ready yet. I'm ambivalent about marriage, for 
a whole host of reasons I won't go into here - but just loooking around, 
I see so many loveless marriages that it is scary. The few loving ones I 
see are a spark of hope. 

The key is being willing to tough out hard times with the cooperation of 
your mate - but knowing when things aren't working and being able to let 
go. (and not just throwing up your hands at the first sign of trouble and 
saying 'I quit'!)

dobie

In article <4leqra$fda@d2.tufts.edu>,
d.hoberman <hoberman@allegro.cs.tufts.edu> wrote:
>Just to throw a spark of hope into a bleak thread:

		[Cooley's remarks removed for brevity]

>There *are* a lot of narcisstic people out there. always have been.

*That* was never in doubt.

			[snip]

>but would you really want to stay in a marriage that makes you miserable?
>I *do* think that a lot of people get married who 
>shouldn't. They're just not ready yet. I'm ambivalent about marriage, for 
>a whole host of reasons I won't go into here - but just loooking around, 
>I see so many loveless marriages that it is scary. The few loving ones I 
>see are a spark of hope. 
>
>The key is being willing to tough out hard times with the cooperation of 
>your mate - but knowing when things aren't working and being able to let 
>go. (and not just throwing up your hands at the first sign of trouble and 
>saying 'I quit'!)

This brings up an interesting point:  every marriage has its down
periods.  How many of us hear about the good times a married couple
has?  I submit the bad times get aired because the people in the marriage
need to get their problems out.  The good times they don't share.

What do you think?

				Robert
-- 
--------------------------
Robert Becker                                      robertb@world.std.com
Erstwhile bicyclist, avid father, longtime breather

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Robert Becker wrote:

> >The key is being willing to tough out hard times with the cooperation of 
> >your mate - but knowing when things aren't working and being able to let 
> >go. (and not just throwing up your hands at the first sign of trouble and 
> >saying 'I quit'!)
> 
> This brings up an interesting point:  every marriage has its down
> periods.  How many of us hear about the good times a married couple
> has?  I submit the bad times get aired because the people in the marriage
> need to get their problems out.  The good times they don't share.
> 
> What do you think?

I think you're partly right. I hear a bit about good things and a lot
about problems between my friends. It seems they need other opinions about
their relationship when they aren't making it work well... or perhaps they
need you to provide the assurance that what they described is a good
excuse to dump the jerk. Besides, if they're talking to a member of the
preferred sex, many people use "oh life is so bad" as a baited hook to
attract the next mate. Some women and many men are "white knights", ready
to come running to save the maiden from the dragon! Unfortunately the
maiden in this case often IS the dragon.. 

--L

robertb@world.std.com (Robert Becker) wrote:

>In article <4leqra$fda@d2.tufts.edu>,
>d.hoberman <hoberman@allegro.cs.tufts.edu> wrote:
>>Just to throw a spark of hope into a bleak thread:
>
>		[Cooley's remarks removed for brevity]
>
>>There *are* a lot of narcisstic people out there. always have been.
>
>*That* was never in doubt.
>
>			[snip]
>
>>but would you really want to stay in a marriage that makes you miserable?
>>I *do* think that a lot of people get married who 
>>shouldn't. They're just not ready yet. I'm ambivalent about marriage, for 
>>a whole host of reasons I won't go into here - but just loooking around, 
>>I see so many loveless marriages that it is scary. The few loving ones I 
>>see are a spark of hope. 
>>
>>The key is being willing to tough out hard times with the cooperation of 
>>your mate - but knowing when things aren't working and being able to let 
>>go. (and not just throwing up your hands at the first sign of trouble and 
>>saying 'I quit'!)
>
>This brings up an interesting point:  every marriage has its down
>periods.  How many of us hear about the good times a married couple
>has?  I submit the bad times get aired because the people in the marriage
>need to get their problems out.  The good times they don't share.
>
>What do you think?
>
>				Robert
>-- 
>--------------------------
>Robert Becker                                      robertb@world.std.com
>Erstwhile bicyclist, avid father, longtime breather

Oh, I could probably write a few books about this.....

The joke with John and I is that our first couple of years were utter
hell.  We had the absolute worst luck you could imagine. Got married.
Got pregnant. Miscarried. Got transferred to crappy east coast
location with few jobs for spouses (read: me). My brother died. I got
sick and almost died. Hospitalized and diagnosed with major illness
which plagues me to this day. Got pregnant. Miscarried. Got pregnant.
Miscarried. I spend 3 months somewhat out of touch with reality as we
know it (which is a nice way of saying I was completely mental). 

Ok, there is the first four years. Are you seeing a pattern?

But, in the last year and a half, John got out of the navy, we were
able to move back to where I grew up. Got pregnant. Had a baby <gasp>.
John got a great job (ok, this is not in order). Things have been
looking up.

We cannot stop yapping our jaws about how damned lucky we are to our
friends and family. My (single and hating it) sister threatens to
smack me when I talk about how lucky we are. His mom is real happy now
(she was real worried before).

I do agree that we complain a lot when things are bad as a release and
also for support. But, I think that quite a few people shout pretty
loud when things are good. 

	Tami

In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960420152114.12883A-100000@mv.mv.com>,
-=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:

> I'm glad my cats are into lifetime commitments. At least it gives some 
> continuity to one relationship!

That's the second post in a row that I've read in this thread in which
someone uses the company of cats as an alternative to a romantic
relationship.  We could be on to something here!

Yeah, I love cats, why do you ask?  ;)

Ron

-- 
Everytime we try to impose order we create chaos.  We create chaos--breakdown.
I have my doubt; a state of eternal conflict is all I have found.  We build a wall that is made of tears, watch the house fall down...and at the end of my life...yes, at the end of my life...all shall be well...all is as it was always meant to be...   (Killing Joke)

In article <breadfan-2304961915560001@dial3-6.cybercom.net>,
Budgie <breadfan@cybercom.net> wrote:
>In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960420152114.12883A-100000@mv.mv.com>,
>-=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm glad my cats are into lifetime commitments. At least it gives some 
>> continuity to one relationship!
>
>That's the second post in a row that I've read in this thread in which
>someone uses the company of cats as an alternative to a romantic
>relationship.  We could be on to something here!
How about children?? Yeah I don't miss that man woman stuff cause I
always have a small warm body to cuddle :) And that is *definately* a
lifetime commitment.  
>Yeah, I love cats, why do you ask?  ;)
>
>Ron
>
>-- 
>Everytime we try to impose order we create chaos.  We create chaos--breakdown.
>I have my doubt; a state of eternal conflict is all I have found.  We build a wall that is made of tears, watch the house fall down...and at the end of my life...yes, at the end of my life...all shall be well...all is as it was always meant to be...   (Killing Joke)

-- 

Mary Ellen Froning
mfroning@iastate.edu
                  In women hot flashes are surges of POWER

-=Weezel=- wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Robert Becker wrote:
> 
> > >The key is being willing to tough out hard times with the cooperation of
> > >your mate - but knowing when things aren't working and being able to let
> > >go. (and not just throwing up your hands at the first sign of trouble and
> > >saying 'I quit'!)
> >
> > This brings up an interesting point:  every marriage has its down
> > periods.  How many of us hear about the good times a married couple
> > has?  I submit the bad times get aired because the people in the marriage
> > need to get their problems out.  The good times they don't share.
> >
> > What do you think?
> 
> I think you're partly right. I hear a bit about good things and a lot
> about problems between my friends. It seems they need other opinions about
> their relationship when they aren't making it work well... or perhaps they
> need you to provide the assurance that what they described is a good
> excuse to dump the jerk. Besides, if they're talking to a member of the
> preferred sex, many people use "oh life is so bad" as a baited hook to
> attract the next mate. Some women and many men are "white knights", ready
> to come running to save the maiden from the dragon! Unfortunately the
> maiden in this case often IS the dragon..
> 
> --L

jeezus krist, weezel--you called it rite on, good job, exactly what 
happened with my and my second xol.

Budgie (breadfan@cybercom.net) wrote:
: In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960420152114.12883A-100000@mv.mv.com>,
: -=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:

: > I'm glad my cats are into lifetime commitments. At least it gives some 
: > continuity to one relationship!

: That's the second post in a row that I've read in this thread in which
: someone uses the company of cats as an alternative to a romantic
: relationship.  We could be on to something here!

: Yeah, I love cats, why do you ask?  ;)

: Ron

How come I have to scoop the litter box that my wife loves.  I don't
care too much for them.  Oh yeah, I have to feed them too!

To top it all off, she gives them more attention than she does me!!!

Trying to rekindle the romance,

Rob

it's easy to rekindle romance with a cat

just give it what it wants     food    comfort    a scritch in the spot 
it decides is the right spot today   a clean litter tray   and the 
freedom to come and go as it wishes

not much

it's easy to rekindle romance with people

but only if they know what they want and can tell you, somehow.

some days I wish people would purr when I get things right, and bite my 
hand gently when I don't

and stand in front of whatever treat it is they want and meow loudly

this would make communication much simpler.

and I really wish they'd sometimes curl up and exude purrs and contented 
vibes around me. come up to me and nudge my hand and want to be there, 
right there, where-ever I am, because I'm there, even if it's the coldest 
place in the house. Just because.

--L

-=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:
>it's easy to rekindle romance with a cat
>
>just give it what it wants     food    comfort    a scritch in the spot 
>it decides is the right spot today   a clean litter tray   and the 
>freedom to come and go as it wishes
>
>not much
>
>it's easy to rekindle romance with people
>
>but only if they know what they want and can tell you, somehow.
>
>some days I wish people would purr when I get things right, and bite my 
>hand gently when I don't
>
>and stand in front of whatever treat it is they want and meow loudly
>
>this would make communication much simpler.
>
>and I really wish they'd sometimes curl up and exude purrs and contented 
>vibes around me. come up to me and nudge my hand and want to be there, 
>right there, where-ever I am, because I'm there, even if it's the coldest 
>place in the house. Just because.
>
>--L

Cats are just plain easy. People are difficult. 

Let me know the next time your cat tells you a good joke or picks you up when 
your car breaks down or tells you you're "not too fat" or takes you dancing or 
buys you a birthday gift. These are real. 

Think about how much your cat "cares" about you. I am not a cat fancier or hater,
and I know that animals can be a wonderful comfort, but it scares me when people 
talk of "romance" with a pet. I am sure that you speak of "romance" metaphorically 
in relation to your cats, but the business of life and love is much more work than 
opening a can and emptying a litter box. 

-j-

On Sat, 27 Apr 1996, John Klingle wrote:

> -=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> wrote:
> >it's easy to rekindle romance with a cat
> >
> >just give it what it wants     food    comfort    a scritch in the spot 
> >it decides is the right spot today   a clean litter tray   and the 
> >freedom to come and go as it wishes
> >
> >not much
> >
> >it's easy to rekindle romance with people
> >
> >but only if they know what they want and can tell you, somehow.
> >
> >some days I wish people would purr when I get things right, and bite my 
> >hand gently when I don't
> >
> >and stand in front of whatever treat it is they want and meow loudly
> >
> >this would make communication much simpler.
> >
> >and I really wish they'd sometimes curl up and exude purrs and contented 
> >vibes around me. come up to me and nudge my hand and want to be there, 
> >right there, where-ever I am, because I'm there, even if it's the coldest 
> >place in the house. Just because.
> >
> >--L
> 
> Cats are just plain easy. People are difficult. 
> 
> Let me know the next time your cat tells you a good joke or picks you up when 
> your car breaks down or tells you you're "not too fat" or takes you dancing or 
> buys you a birthday gift. These are real. 
> 
> Think about how much your cat "cares" about you. I am not a cat fancier or hater,
> and I know that animals can be a wonderful comfort, but it scares me when people 
> talk of "romance" with a pet. I am sure that you speak of "romance" metaphorically 
> in relation to your cats, but the business of life and love is much more work than 
> opening a can and emptying a litter box. 
> 
> -j-

Romance... that's different than commitment. Commitment, caring, being
reciprocal... that is what you're talking about when you mention someone
picking you up when your car is broken down. It's friendship, somewhat on
a mundane level (where "mundane" is not a putdown, but rather part of the
stuff that makes life work). It's *not* "romance", which has to do with
"fabrications", "excitement, love, and adventure", "wonderful and
extraordinary events, or stories about them", and "love affairs" according
to my dictionary. 

My relationship with my cats isn't between equals, and is not a substitute
for such a thing. However, it's dependable and comforting. And they are
there when the "romance" in my life phones me to say he's in love with
someone else too. They come up to comfort me, they are much more attentive
when I'm very sad. And they're definitely exciting, especially when I 
arrive home to find them stuck on top of pieces of furniture they had NO 
way of getting onto.

That said... there was a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor in my prior post. 
honestly, I don't expect my cats to bring me roses. 

I s'pose there should've been a couple humor indicators on it... the ;-) 
thingies. hmm.

--L

On 28 Apr 1996, Ron Bean wrote:

> -=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> writes:
> 
> > >it's easy to rekindle romance with people
> > >
> > >but only if they know what they want and can tell you, somehow.
> > >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >some days I wish people would purr when I get things right, and bite my
> > >hand gently when I don't
> > >
> > >and stand in front of whatever treat it is they want and meow loudly
> > >
> > >this would make communication much simpler.
>                                       ^^^^^^^
>    I think what you're getting at here is not that communication should
> be simple, but that it should be clear. Often women are accused of
> being indirect, beating around the bush, etc., although men can play
> that game also. It doesn't help the relationship any (and that goes for
> your kids or your parents as well as your spouse). As you say, it's a
> lot easier if you know what you want in the first place.

Yes, Ron. That was the meaning of "simple" that I intended. Simple = easy
as opposed to simple = trite. It is easier to communicate if people are
direct as opposed to being indirect. 

Note1: it doesn't mean the communication will be pleasant... or that the 
discussion will be easy, just that it will be easier to convey 
information from one person to the other.

Note2: There is a difference between being direct and being crude or
hurtful. There are times when you should not directly tell someone 
something because what you are doing is using them as a confessional when 
they are not in that profession. Or you are using "being honest" as a 
whip, as in the person who tells his/her SO exactly who s/he thinks is 
sexier than the SO.  

Note3: It also does no good to directly tell someone facts and events in
such a way that they have no idea what these events mean to you. Like,
directly stating "there's a movie" doesn't say whether you want to go to
it. That's INdirect (unless you've developed a code that your SO can
decipher... but it is a pain to have to do this!)

--L

-=Weezel=- <louise@mv.mv.com> writes:

> >it's easy to rekindle romance with people
> >
> >but only if they know what they want and can tell you, somehow.
> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >some days I wish people would purr when I get things right, and bite my
> >hand gently when I don't
> >
> >and stand in front of whatever treat it is they want and meow loudly
> >
> >this would make communication much simpler.
                                      ^^^^^^^
   I think what you're getting at here is not that communication should
be simple, but that it should be clear. Often women are accused of
being indirect, beating around the bush, etc., although men can play
that game also. It doesn't help the relationship any (and that goes for
your kids or your parents as well as your spouse). As you say, it's a
lot easier if you know what you want in the first place.

   I've heard of couples that seem to be able to read each other's
minds, but they only get to that point after they've been communicating
for decades.

==================
madnix!zaphod@nicmad.nicolet.com (Ron Bean)

-- 
Ron.Bean@Msn.FullFeed.Com

-=Weezel=- wrote:
> I hear a bit about good things and a lot
> about problems between my friends. It seems they need other opinions about
> their relationship when they aren't making it work well... or perhaps they
> need you to provide the assurance that what they described is a good
> excuse to dump the jerk. Besides, if they're talking to a member of the
> preferred sex, many people use "oh life is so bad" as a baited hook to
> attract the next mate. Some women and many men are "white knights", ready
> to come running to save the maiden from the dragon! Unfortunately the
> maiden in this case often IS the dragon..


Weezel, I think its human nature to want to talk with your friends about
making big life changes like dropping your Significant Other.  I guess
some of it is the validation thing, but a good part of it is just wanting
to know if they're missing something in their analysis of their own
situation (not to mention the cathartic effect talking about one's current
situation can have.)

Also, I can't tell you how many women I've met who somehow had some long,
horrid "life is so bad" story as part of her repetoire...   I wonder if
there are as many guys who use this "hook" ?

  - John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  __))    "Glass ceilings?  Name ANY ex-goat farmer who's made management!"
 /_ oo  
  (_ \   Holliston Poor Farm                                   - John Cooley
%//  \"  Holliston, MA 01746-6222           part time Sheep & ex-Goat Farmer
%%%  $   jcooley@world.std.com       full time contract ASIC & FPGA Designer