🚀 go-pugleaf

Radium wrote:
> Path:
> g2news1.google.com!news1.google.com!atl-c05.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc07.POSTED!c101a669!not-for-mail
> From: "hanson" <hanson@quick.net>
> Newsgroups:
> sci.med.pathology,bionet.molbio.proteins,sci.physics,sci.chem,sci.med
> References: <1136143280.750000.71290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Thermal Burn Injury -- Why Does it Appear *White*?
> Lines: 42
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670
> X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670
> Message-ID: <uaXtf.1$Y75.0@trnddc07>
> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:44:10 GMT
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.107.158.250
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net
> X-Trace: trnddc07 1136148250 71.107.158.250 (Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10
> EST)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10 EST
>
> >First the transparent proteins denaturate/coagulate and turn white.
>
> So what makes the burn look white, the denaturation or the coagulation?
> If the denatured proteins in the burn were not allowed to coagulate [as
> would be the case under my 'rules'], would the burn still look white?
>
> >Then keep frying and its glyco/sugar type components caramelize
> >and turn brown, and upon further frying they "char" into black stuff,
>
> Proteins have glyco/sugar components? Never knew proteins contain
> carbohydrates.


Maybe not "carbohydrate" exactly [Cn(H2O)n] , but nitrogen, carbon,
hydrogen, oxygen, close enough.

http://web.mit.edu/esgbio/www/lm/proteins/aa/aminoacids.html

Proteins have a repeating N-C-C backbone, as is explained in any
college-level biology and chemistry text...

Just to throw a wrench into the works, would white blood cells also
contribute to the white color?

Take some chicken breast and throw it in the microwave for a couple of
minutes, notice the color... what do you see?  (Make sure it's
thoroughly cooked before eating!)

"DK" <dk@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
news:dphh1q$bdd$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
>>
>>Radium wrote:
>>> Proteins have glyco/sugar components?
>>>  Never knew proteins contain carbohydrates.
>
["DK"]
> Of course they do. Not all of them but many. Lookup these terms:
> glycoprotein, proteoglycan, posttranslational glycosylation
>
[ onehappymadman@yahoo.com]
<1136404549.017084.43140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>Take some chicken breast and throw it in the microwave for a
>>couple of minutes, notice the color... what do you see?
>
["DK"]
> Egg white is even better example.
> DK
>
[hanson]
ahahaha... been there, done that in:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/msg/dec9bb559b83a2cf
It begins to look certain by now that Radium's obsession
with "whiteness" arose out of his shock after s/he discovered
that her/his brain was white from lack of blood circulation.. or..
that s/he put it next to a flame that fried it.... ahahaha...
Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahanson

onehappymadman@yahoo.com wrote:
> Radium wrote:
> > Path:
> > g2news1.google.com!news1.google.com!atl-c05.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc07.POSTED!c101a669!not-for-mail
> > From: "hanson" <hanson@quick.net>
> > Newsgroups:
> > sci.med.pathology,bionet.molbio.proteins,sci.physics,sci.chem,sci.med
> > References: <1136143280.750000.71290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Thermal Burn Injury -- Why Does it Appear *White*?
> > Lines: 42
> > X-Priority: 3
> > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670
> > X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670
> > Message-ID: <uaXtf.1$Y75.0@trnddc07>
> > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:44:10 GMT
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.107.158.250
> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net
> > X-Trace: trnddc07 1136148250 71.107.158.250 (Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10
> > EST)
> > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10 EST
> >
> > >First the transparent proteins denaturate/coagulate and turn white.
> >
> > So what makes the burn look white, the denaturation or the coagulation?
> > If the denatured proteins in the burn were not allowed to coagulate [as
> > would be the case under my 'rules'], would the burn still look white?
> >
> > >Then keep frying and its glyco/sugar type components caramelize
> > >and turn brown, and upon further frying they "char" into black stuff,
> >
> > Proteins have glyco/sugar components? Never knew proteins contain
> > carbohydrates.
>
>
> Maybe not "carbohydrate" exactly [Cn(H2O)n] , but nitrogen, carbon,
> hydrogen, oxygen, close enough.
>
> http://web.mit.edu/esgbio/www/lm/proteins/aa/aminoacids.html
>
> Proteins have a repeating N-C-C backbone, as is explained in any
> college-level biology and chemistry text...

Okay

> Just to throw a wrench into the works, would white blood cells also
> contribute to the white color?

I am not sure about this. The epidermis doesn't have any blood supply.
Thus it is unlikely that a 1st-degree burn [which only injures the
epidermis] would result in white blood cells being in the epidermis of
the burn region. I doubt that there would be any more white blood cells
in the epidermis of the burn region than there would be in epidermis of
non-burned regions [i.e. ZERO].

> Take some chicken breast and throw it in the microwave for a couple of
> minutes, notice the color... what do you see?  (Make sure it's
> thoroughly cooked before eating!)

Chicken turns from pink to white when heated. Beef turns from red to
brown when heated. This is probably due to thermal-denaturation of the
myoglobins present in the meat.

However, this is very different from what happens in the
1st-degree-burned epidermis. The epidermis does not contain any
hemoglobins or myoglobins.

I ^think^ -- but DON'T *know* that -- the 'whiteness' in a 1st-degree
burn is due to thermal-denaturation of the proteins that make up the
epidermis. If these denatured proteins were NOT allowed to coagulate
[as is the case under my 'rules'] would the burn still appear white?

Radium wrote:
> onehappymadman@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Radium wrote:
> > > Path:
> > > g2news1.google.com!news1.google.com!atl-c05.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc07.POSTED!c101a669!not-for-mail
> > > From: "hanson" <hanson@quick.net>
> > > Newsgroups:
> > > sci.med.pathology,bionet.molbio.proteins,sci.physics,sci.chem,sci.med
> > > References: <1136143280.750000.71290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Thermal Burn Injury -- Why Does it Appear *White*?
> > > Lines: 42
> > > X-Priority: 3
> > > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670
> > > X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> > > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670
> > > Message-ID: <uaXtf.1$Y75.0@trnddc07>
> > > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:44:10 GMT
> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.107.158.250
> > > X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net
> > > X-Trace: trnddc07 1136148250 71.107.158.250 (Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10
> > > EST)
> > > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:44:10 EST
> > >
> > > >First the transparent proteins denaturate/coagulate and turn white.
> > >
> > > So what makes the burn look white, the denaturation or the coagulation?
> > > If the denatured proteins in the burn were not allowed to coagulate [as
> > > would be the case under my 'rules'], would the burn still look white?
> > >
> > > >Then keep frying and its glyco/sugar type components caramelize
> > > >and turn brown, and upon further frying they "char" into black stuff,
> > >
> > > Proteins have glyco/sugar components? Never knew proteins contain
> > > carbohydrates.
> >
> >
> > Maybe not "carbohydrate" exactly [Cn(H2O)n] , but nitrogen, carbon,
> > hydrogen, oxygen, close enough.
> >
> > http://web.mit.edu/esgbio/www/lm/proteins/aa/aminoacids.html
> >
> > Proteins have a repeating N-C-C backbone, as is explained in any
> > college-level biology and chemistry text...
>
> Okay
>
> > Just to throw a wrench into the works, would white blood cells also
> > contribute to the white color?
>
> I am not sure about this. The epidermis doesn't have any blood supply.
> Thus it is unlikely that a 1st-degree burn [which only injures the
> epidermis] would result in white blood cells being in the epidermis of
> the burn region. I doubt that there would be any more white blood cells
> in the epidermis of the burn region than there would be in epidermis of
> non-burned regions [i.e. ZERO].
>
> > Take some chicken breast and throw it in the microwave for a couple of
> > minutes, notice the color... what do you see?  (Make sure it's
> > thoroughly cooked before eating!)
>
> Chicken turns from pink to white when heated. Beef turns from red to
> brown when heated. This is probably due to thermal-denaturation of the
> myoglobins present in the meat.
>
> However, this is very different from what happens in the
> 1st-degree-burned epidermis. The epidermis does not contain any
> hemoglobins or myoglobins.
>
> I ^think^ -- but DON'T *know* that -- the 'whiteness' in a 1st-degree
> burn is due to thermal-denaturation of the proteins that make up the
> epidermis. If these denatured proteins were NOT allowed to coagulate
> [as is the case under my 'rules'] would the burn still appear white?

Rather than guess, I suggest you scrape some of the skin off at the
burn site and put it under a microscope. Nothing like empirical
observation to trump wild guesses.

PD

PD wrote:

> I suggest you scrape some of the skin off at the
> burn site and put it under a microscope.

What will I accomplish by doing the above? I doubt I will see anything
significant under the microscope.

Radium wrote:
> PD wrote:
>
> > I suggest you scrape some of the skin off at the
> > burn site and put it under a microscope.
>
> What will I accomplish by doing the above? I doubt I will see anything
> significant under the microscope.

I'm not sure I agree. Here's another example you can try. Egg whites
raw and egg whites cooked (denatured).

Moreover, since protein is protein whether its alive or dead, you could
test whether the protein is denatured in a burn by using a piece of
chicken skin from the supermarket.


PD

The redness and whiteness during light burns is the result of different
behaviour of the subcutaneous capillaries.

Heat induces shock.

The resident granulocytes (histiocytes residing in the subcutaneous tissue)
degranulate, and among others release histamine that is a potent
vasoconstrictor. It causes the smooth muscle in the capillary to constrict.
Constricted blood vessels reduce the blood flow locally, and the skin looks
pale (white). This reaction is less visible in the more pigmented skin.

Now if the burn is more severe, is causes tissue damage. Cells necrotize and
the permeability of endothelial lining of the blood vessels increases
(serum exudes)  in addition to the histamines other components are released
too including the components of the complement system, all of this results
in a localized, but rapidly escalating inflammatory reaction. This further
increases the vascular permeability, vasodilation and enhanced blood  which
is necessary for leucocytes to infiltrate the damaged tissue (to protect and
help to repair it).

At this stage erythema formation is common occurrence which is the swelling
and redness of the affected areas of the skin. This takes some time to
develop, so the proper order of changes is: whiteness immediately after the
injury, followed by redness in minutes or hours.

Now if you have a VERY strong burn, "cauterizing" burn, that coagulates 
proteins even deeper in the tissue, it plugs the blood vessels by causing 
the proteins to coagulate, there is no blood circulation, and the skin 
remains pale (white). Because of reduced circulation, it takes much longer 
for the inflammatory reaction to begin and usually the injury develops a 
decently sized "sack" filled with yellowish plasma that hides any color 
below it (plain optical phenomenon) it  protects the underlying tissue but 
dries up gradually and normal blood coagulation proteins help to form a 
brownish cover over the damaged area.

The ultimate burn injury results in charring. Charred tissue is initially a 
dry mixture of skin proteins and blood, contains large amount of 
carbohydrates, lipids, hemoglobins etc, and all kind of degradation products 
thereof, carbonized,  caramelized sugars etc, that causes it to have a dark 
almost black color. It never regenerates (dead tissue), but easily breaks 
and allows bacteria to seep into the wounds. charred tissue is usually 
removed to hasten the healing.

lajos

baranyi@comcast.net wrote:
> The redness and whiteness during light burns is the result of different
> behaviour of the subcutaneous capillaries.
>
> Heat induces shock.
>
> The resident granulocytes (histiocytes residing in the subcutaneous tissue)
> degranulate, and among others release histamine that is a potent
> vasoconstrictor. It causes the smooth muscle in the capillary to constrict.
> Constricted blood vessels reduce the blood flow locally, and the skin looks
> pale (white). This reaction is less visible in the more pigmented skin.
>
> Now if the burn is more severe, is causes tissue damage. Cells necrotize and
> the permeability of endothelial lining of the blood vessels increases
> (serum exudes)  in addition to the histamines other components are released
> too including the components of the complement system, all of this results
> in a localized, but rapidly escalating inflammatory reaction. This further
> increases the vascular permeability, vasodilation and enhanced blood  which
> is necessary for leucocytes to infiltrate the damaged tissue (to protect and
> help to repair it).
>
> At this stage erythema formation is common occurrence which is the swelling
> and redness of the affected areas of the skin. This takes some time to
> develop, so the proper order of changes is: whiteness immediately after the
> injury, followed by redness in minutes or hours. ......
Confirm. Since  a year we have a test in hospitals.
When a healthy "white" ( better pink) person presses a finger into the
skin for five seconds or so, the red bloodcells, which are shining
through the skin, which is a bit transparent, are pressed away - so the
skin looks white, until after a few seconds
the red cells return.
When someone has a decubitus, that is a skin damage due to long-time
pressure, the skin is red, more red than usual. When You do the
pressure test with your finger,
it stays red. (Of course You do a lot of prevention of decubti, but
sometimes it occurs - so this a nice test to differ a beginning
decubitus from other causes of a more red skin)
Hero
PS If Radium want to turn his or someone elses skin "white":
o stay out of sun -light, especially uv-light. This turns "white" skin
brown.
o  as one can destroy the stain (pigments ?) of a tatoo with a laser,
so the cells can remove the rubbish from this, one could think of
applying this to the pigments in the skin or making the skin more
transparent.
o may be this is not science. when i stayed in London, St.Peter's
House- nurses residence in 1972 (wonderful time) with a whole
common-wealth of people and i was
washing my hands, someone told me "Don't use this soap, it makes you
white". I answered: "Thanks" and turned round - and we both smiled.
PS PS How can one turn
red like the red-Indians of the Americas
yellow like the Han-people
have a greenish tinteling like some Indians ?
What's the use of these colours?
PSPSPS And i envy the animals,
butterflies (lepidoptera) with the colours of small scales
chameleon, which can change colours
and most of all octopi and some fishes and other animals,
which can emit light of changing (emotional, intellectual?)pattern in
colour.

Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de wrote:
> PS If Radium want to turn his or someone elses skin "white":
> o stay out of sun -light, especially uv-light. This turns "white" skin
> brown.

As I said before, I am VERY dark-skinned. You couldn't tell the
difference between the color of my skin and that of bittersweet
chocolate [or Oreos, for that matter]. However, the skin in the region
of my finger that was burnt turned white. It was foamy-white, extremely
irritating, and hot. Its texture and moisture content did not change.
There was NO swelling AT ALL. I think it was a 1st-degree burn. The
color of the burn region began to return to normal darkness as it
healed.

baranyi@comcast.net wrote:
> The redness and whiteness during light burns is the result of different
> behaviour of the subcutaneous capillaries.

No. Redness and PALENESS is the result of the different behavior of
capillaries

There is a different between paleness and whiteness.

> Heat induces shock.
>
> The resident granulocytes (histiocytes residing in the subcutaneous tissue)
> degranulate, and among others release histamine that is a potent
> vasoconstrictor. It causes the smooth muscle in the capillary to constrict.
> Constricted blood vessels reduce the blood flow locally, and the skin looks
> pale (white).

>This reaction is less visible in the more pigmented skin.

Not in my case. I am very dark-skinned [literally as dark as an oreo
cookie]. My burn wound appeared white -- foamy white. It was NOT cold,
so vasocontriction didn't cause the color change. The wound was
unusually hot, extremely irritating and painful and FOAMY WHITE. It
looked very frightening.

What caused this whiteness? I know it is NOT vasoconstriction! It
seemed like a first-degree burn. The skin texture and moisture content
didn't change much.

Is it the coagulation of the epidermal proteins?

I hope my response didn't seem harsh. I was just trying to clarify that
the WHITENESS I am describing has nothing to do with VASOCONSTRICTION.

Unlike what you describe, the WHITENESS did NOT turn red at all. The
wound began to darken to my normal skin color after it healed.

Needless to say, this was probably my most frightening injury.

If a black person wants to be white, [s]he could easily become white by
inflicting a first-degree thermal burn on him[her]self! LOL

> Now if the burn is more severe, is causes tissue damage. Cells necrotize and
> the permeability of endothelial lining of the blood vessels increases
> (serum exudes)  in addition to the histamines other components are released
> too including the components of the complement system, all of this results
> in a localized, but rapidly escalating inflammatory reaction. This further
> increases the vascular permeability, vasodilation and enhanced blood  which
> is necessary for leucocytes to infiltrate the damaged tissue (to protect and
> help to repair it).
>
> At this stage erythema formation is common occurrence which is the swelling
> and redness of the affected areas of the skin. This takes some time to
> develop, so the proper order of changes is: whiteness immediately after the
> injury, followed by redness in minutes or hours.
>
> Now if you have a VERY strong burn, "cauterizing" burn, that coagulates
> proteins even deeper in the tissue, it plugs the blood vessels by causing
> the proteins to coagulate, there is no blood circulation, and the skin
> remains pale (white). Because of reduced circulation, it takes much longer
> for the inflammatory reaction to begin and usually the injury develops a
> decently sized "sack" filled with yellowish plasma that hides any color
> below it (plain optical phenomenon) it  protects the underlying tissue but
> dries up gradually and normal blood coagulation proteins help to form a
> brownish cover over the damaged area.
>
> The ultimate burn injury results in charring. Charred tissue is initially a
> dry mixture of skin proteins and blood, contains large amount of
> carbohydrates, lipids, hemoglobins etc, and all kind of degradation products
> thereof, carbonized,  caramelized sugars etc, that causes it to have a dark
> almost black color. It never regenerates (dead tissue), but easily breaks
> and allows bacteria to seep into the wounds. charred tissue is usually
> removed to hasten the healing.
> 
> lajos

Radium wrote:
> Needless to say, this was probably my most frightening injury.
You ever heard of lepra, this kind of illness, where first some whitish
spots appear on the skin, some extremities becoming numb to pain, and
further on they fall of, piecewise? This horrible illness led in the
past to outlaw the infected.
Just the thought of this, associated with seeing a whitish spot on the
skin, would make me frighten. Is this a deepgoing root of Your fear ?
Nowadays it is a curable disease, and with very little money (and lot
of work) could be swept of the face of earth. But fear is deeprooted
(think of the fear of some people seeing spiders) and not rational.
Regards
Hero

Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de wrote:
> Radium wrote:
> > Needless to say, this was probably my most frightening injury.
> You ever heard of lepra, this kind of illness, where first some whitish
> spots appear on the skin, some extremities becoming numb to pain, and
> further on they fall of, piecewise? This horrible illness led in the
> past to outlaw the infected.
> Just the thought of this, associated with seeing a whitish spot on the
> skin, would make me frighten. Is this a deepgoing root of Your fear ?
> Nowadays it is a curable disease, and with very little money (and lot
> of work) could be swept of the face of earth. But fear is deeprooted
> (think of the fear of some people seeing spiders) and not rational.
> Regards
> Hero

LOL