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Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:32
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Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: SlipperySlope
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:32
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:32
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-train11oct11,1,3243424.story?coll=la-headlines-california FRIENDSHIPS FORGED ON RAILS Often starting with a smile and a nod, some Metrolink commuters are bonding with fellow riders -- and even throwing parties onboard. Christiana Sciaudone Los Angeles Times October 11, 2004 The train passengers leaving Union Station jostle about, squeezing by one another with plates stacked high with tamales, taquitos and buffalo wings. Headed toward San Bernardino on a Metrolink train, they hustle in the compressed space, grabbing another slice of pizza or a bit of smoked salmon. They talk of sports and shout over conversations to pass another soda. At the center of the party is Lucy Reinhardt-Ulatowski, doling out eggrolls, homemade broccoli salad and sandwiches, which she spent hours making the night before. When Reinhardt-Ulatowski began commuting by Metrolink in 2001 � a grueling five-hour round-trip commute from Victorville to downtown Los Angeles � she worried it would be painfully monotonous. On her first few trips, she stared out at the passing landscape of foothills, warehouses and housing tracts as her fellow commuters read, typed on their laptops and listened to music. "It was kind of scary, all by yourself," she said, "trying to look cool." But over time, she began chatting with the people on her car, conversations that evolved into relationships. Today, the friendships she forged during those long commutes are stronger than those at work or in her suburban subdivision. She and her train friends organize potluck parties aboard the trains, vacation together and socialize off the tracks. And when one member of the extended family was mangled in a bicycle accident last year, Reinhardt-Ulatowski held a fundraiser to help him out. Reinhardt-Ulatowski is part of what transit experts say is a small but remarkable subculture that has developed inside Southern California's commuter trains. What starts as a smile and a nod unfolds into in-depth discussions of football and families. Metrolink, which operates the region's commuter trains, has at least three rail cars in its network in which groups have organized. The "party trains" are definitely the exception, with most Metrolink riders using their commute for decidedly more singular pursuits, such as reading, paying bills or working on their laptop computers. But train officials and others are intrigued about how these groups form and the lasting bonds of these commuter friendships. "People tend to sit in the same place every day, and as they see each other again and again, they start talking," said Metrolink spokeswoman Sharon Gavin. "It's a way to de-stress about your day before you get home. By the time you get home, you don't really have to complain to your family." The groups formed spontaneously without any help from Metrolink, but "it's something that we encourage," Gavin said. "Get to know your fellow riders. It adds a level of humanness to the commute." Club cars where commuters socialize have long been a part of the East Coast train culture, but it's something new to Southern California. Anastasia Loukaitou-Sideris, chairwoman of UCLA's department of urban planning, said the groups "attest to the fact that a mode of transportation like a train is much more of a social mode than a car. When you are in a train, you have to interact with other people." That's something Sheila Fisher and other passengers on the Metrolink between Los Angeles and Orange County discovered. When she first began her daily travels from Los Angeles to Orange County eight years ago, Fisher was still mourning the death of her husband. Sitting alone on the train, she would watch from afar as a boisterous group huddled farther up her car laughed and chatted every afternoon on the ride home. It made her feel even lonelier. One afternoon, the whole group came over. "They said, 'Why don't you come and join us? We'd like to know who you are,' " Fisher recalled. "For me, it was like a reawakening. I met more people than I ever had before." Since then, Fisher, a 61-year-old Eagle Rock resident who works as a collections manager for the Orange County Credit Union, has become one of the group's main party organizers. She played host to 10 people from her train for a weekend getaway to Rosarito Beach, Mexico, and held several parties on the train. But the group is now doing more than socializing. Fisher and others have volunteered together at the Los Angeles Police Museum and for a nonprofit medical clinic in Lancaster. "We've helped people write resumes, helped people prepare for interviews, we've mentored people," Fisher said. "If someone is going to be out of a job, we network." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Earlier this year, the party was in full swing on the Metrolink San Bernardino train. Weeks earlier, Reinhardt-Ulatowski solicited food for a potluck celebration, climbing aboard with lists of names, phone numbers and e-mail addresses. Wearing a gray pinstripe skirt suit and sneakers, with her $200 monthly pass secured at her lapel, Reinhardt-Ulatowski parks her rolling briefcase in a corner of the train car. She moves cautiously among about 30 pairs of knees and bags, and negotiates such items as an Ambrosia-style salad, green beverages and chicken wings. Most cars in the train are relatively quiet, but Reinhardt-Ulatowski's train was bustling. At the end of one car, two games of dominoes were going. Players rotated in and out as the train pulled into stations. Reinhardt-Ulatowski "brings a lot of people together," said Allen Scott of Fontana, as he watched one of the games. That's not how she felt when she began taking the train. Reinhardt-Ulatowski, who worked at Ontario Airport for 10 years as a police official's secretary, was later promoted to a job in downtown Los Angeles. The commute was a big issue, but neither she nor her husband wanted to give up their 1,600-square-foot home in Victorville, which sits on 1 1/3 acres. Wild quail and rabbits visit them regularly. "The prices of property are way lower than even Rancho Cucamonga," she said, of another Inland Empire suburb closer to downtown. Her daily travels begin at 5 a.m., when she arrives at a Victorville station and catches a bus to Rancho Cucamonga to the train, which departs about 6:15 a.m. The train pulls into Los Angeles just over an hour later. From there, Reinhardt-Ulatowski jumps on another bus, which delivers her at 7:30 a.m. to 6th and Spring streets, where she works as an executive secretary for the city. Each evening, the 85-mile trek is reversed, and she plops down on her living room couch by 9 p.m. For a while, her train journeys were lengthy and solitary. Home. Train. Work. Train. Home. Read the newspaper. Twiddle thumbs. Abandon the crossword. Until the scent of chicken reached her empty stomach. "These guys would get on every day with chicken, and you could smell it on the whole train," she said. "One day, someone offered me some." Although she declined the offer, it sparked a conversation. She met John Kerby, 32, a Ford dealership manager, and Joe Chavez, 48. They talked football, and Kerby accused Reinhardt-Ulatowski of always defending the underdog team. Conversations evolved to talk of families, work and vacations, and soon the three were planning a trip to Las Vegas. "When you spend an hour a day on the train, you get to know a person," Kerby said at a recent wedding party thrown by Reinhardt-Ulatowski for a bartender at Union Station. "We spend so much time together, more time than I spend with my brother or my father." What started as a few people killing time discussing touchdowns and field goals became a crew of 40 people � a fraction of the roughly 360 people on the San Bernardino train. "There are no politics on the train," said Reinhardt-Ulatowski. "No games to play, no one to compete with or impress." The San Bernardino line group is made up of people of different races, ages and professions. People come and go as jobs and schedules change. But what unites them is the fact that they have long commutes and that they are trying to make them more tolerable. Michael Harvey lives in Ontario and takes the train as part of his commute to Compton. "It's a lot less stress" to take the train, he said, and factoring in the cost of gasoline, "this is so much better�. I love watching traffic go by." Harvey and the gang can sometimes be a little loud, but they said they don't get many complaints from others on the train. "We're just having a good time, and most people understand that we're just letting off steam," said Harvey, 40, a manager at the Compton Water Department. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Until last year, the friendships on the train were casual � confined to the potlucks and occasional vacations. Then, one of the commuters, Mike Yanez, was critically injured when a car struck his bicycle. He blacked out for 16 days. Doctors put plates in his cheeks, reconstructed his eyebrows, pulled out his jaw and fixed his nose. The dog groomer also required knee surgery. News of the accident traveled fast on the train. Yanez stood out because he often lugged his bike aboard. "The more we found out about him and how badly he'd been hurt," said Reinhardt-Ulatowski, "the more we wanted to do something for him." She started a collection to send in a get-well card. Then she and other riders held a raffle onboard, and with the money raised, they bought him a new bike and helmet. They surprised Yanez with the bike when he returned to the train. "I was touched�. Not everybody does stuff like that," he said. For the group's Fourth of July party, Reinhardt-Ulatowski decked herself out in a red skirt suit with an American flag shirt and scarf, and red-white-and-blue earrings. Reinhardt-Ulatowski stood in the train waiting for the Rancho Cucamonga stop. "We got through another one," she said. She turned to those riders left on the train � hers is not quite the last stop. "You guys, thanks for everything," Reinhardt-Ulatowski said. "Bye, Lucy." "Thanks, Lucy." "We love you, Lucy." Reinhardt-Ulatowski rolled her eyes. "You'll see me again," she said. "Tomorrow."
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Don Hagstrom
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:48
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:48
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Exactly. You don't see Caltrans having to promote use of the freeway system... I hope those Metrolink commuters are really having a good time--those parties and social sessions are really costing the taxpayer in terms of fare subsidies... Don Hagstrom "Steve Hoskins" <sjhhoskins@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:ggkmm0tispk2e6qhuk5l1v1c1seb156nup@4ax.com... > This very same article appeared months ago in the LA Times..I wonder > if Metrolink doesn't pay them to run it regularly just to pump up > folks opinions.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Bootstrap Bill
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:59
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:59
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-- Wow! Those grubs at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon are a good deal! "Don Hagstrom" <don@fixtraffic.org> wrote in message news:FmJad.4498$ua2.2191@trnddc09... > Exactly. You don't see Caltrans having to promote use of the freeway > system... The cost of using the freeways is included in gas tax and license fees drivers pay. Caltrans might have to advertise if the freeways were turned into tollways.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Andrew Szafran
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:47
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:47
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In misc.transport.rail.americas ill <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote: > Don Hagstrom wrote: > I hope that you have fun sitting in traffic. Here in Philly where we > have a great commuter rail system our and roads seem to never make those > "traffic hell" lists even though we only have two underpowered highways > running through our (5.5 Million)city. LA's air sucks more due to local geographic conditions than anything else. I believe that Spanish explorers noticed a "haze" over what was to become LA 500 or so years ago. That being said, transit is a good thing - on a train, you can do things *other* than driving, like reading a book, or talking to others. -Andrew
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jeff W
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:20
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:20
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ill <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ckgtth$f4fl$1@netnews.upenn.edu>... > Don Hagstrom wrote: > > Exactly. You don't see Caltrans having to promote use of the freeway > > system... > > > > I hope those Metrolink commuters are really having a good time--those > > parties and social sessions are really costing the taxpayer in terms of fare > > subsidies... > > > > Don Hagstrom > > > > "Steve Hoskins" <sjhhoskins@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > news:ggkmm0tispk2e6qhuk5l1v1c1seb156nup@4ax.com... > > > >>This very same article appeared months ago in the LA Times..I wonder > >>if Metrolink doesn't pay them to run it regularly just to pump up > >>folks opinions. > > > > > > > > I hope that you have fun sitting in traffic. Here in Philly where we > have a great commuter rail system our and roads seem to never make those > "traffic hell" lists even though we only have two underpowered highways > running through our (5.5 Million)city. > > Transit works. Highways may allow you to drive directly to a location > but is by far the least efficient way to move people around. > > All great cities require an efficient way to move it's population. > That's why LA's air sucks...selfish people refuse to have to deal with > others so... > > You drive.... That would be the only thing I miss about philly, if nothing other at all. I never had a traffic jam in philly ever. All the other cities I've lived in since, I can't even pick up dinner on the way home. By the way, for the disillusioned, aka the mass majority on here, Tollroads advertise all the time. Either the state, or the local authority. Radio, tv, mailings, billboards. Even when that is the only option.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: brasil97
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:38
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:38
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In article <OCobd.244225$D%.86164@attbi_s51>, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote: > Car companies already have prototype ICE cars with motors that are not a lot > different than present engines. Some companies say they will have > production hydrogen ICE cars on the market in less than five years. Go to any major library in the USA and look up hydrogyn automobiles. There is an instruction manual on how to convert an existing automobile engine to burn hydrogen fuel available there. There is also instructions on how to build a backyard electrolysis plant to convert tap water into hydrogen gas. This instruction manual was a product of the 1970s oil fiasco. Therefore, I find the concept of it taking "less than five years" to build a production model hydrogen burning automobile a little laughable. Big difference in todays autos vs. the 1970s stuff the instruction manual was written for however is that in the 1970s fuel injection would not have been anywhere near as common, so there would have to be some adjustment there. But the fact is the knowledge on how to do this is not recent by any little piece of the imagination. Our government was writing instructions on how to do this in your own backyard 30 years ago. -- -Glennl e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after brasil.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:11
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:11
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Jack May wrote: > Probably will not be fuel cells, but hybrid internal combustion engines > (ICE) burning hydrogen directly. Two reasons. > > 1) We know how to build ICE cheaply on a production line and mechanics know > how to work on ICEs. > > 2) The fuel economy of a hybrid ICE car is almost the same (slightly worse) > than a fuel cell run car. And the overall efficiency is substantially worse than a conventional internal combustion engined hybrid. Significant amounts of fuel have to be consumed to generate the hydrogen. Fuel which could be used more directly and more efficiently. The only reason hydrogen fuel cells cars are feasible is that the electrical drive is so efficient. If they take that out they are completely missing the point. And anyway, at 420 Wh/kg new generation lithium ion batteries have a higher energy density than compressed hydrogen so I'm not convinced that fuel cells will take off. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:28
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:28
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Jack May wrote: > BTW, the prototype cars are getting about a 150 mile range with compressed > hydrogen and 300 miles with liquid hydrogen. Range is a major reason to get > high efficiency Solectria Sunrise: 373 miles per charge, from Boston to NYC in 1997 using NiMH batteries. Batteries are twice as good now. > It should be remember that it used to take five years just to get a > conventional car model to market. I think it is as low as three years now. > A lot of things need to be done to produce a mass produce product. It's going to take 10-20 years. There is no hydrogen distribution network. > The Science article said the 5 years to market is probably a way of not > disclosing their actual plans. The guess is that hydrogen ICE cars will be > on the market much sooner than that. Bet they won't. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Andrew Szafran
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:06
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:06
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In misc.transport.rail.americas Mr. Precision <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote: > Solectria Sunrise: 373 miles per charge, from Boston to NYC in 1997 > using NiMH batteries. Batteries are twice as good now. That was a very light, flimsy car, purpose-built for efficiency, and with no cargo or passenger capacity to speak of. When you're thinking of using electric cars for longer trips, in addition to range per charge, charging *time* must be taken into account. It wouldn't do to drive 250 miles only to have to spend 8 hours recharging the thing. This problem might be correctable by standardized, modular, quickly-replaceable battery packs. -Andrew
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Sancho Panza
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:22
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:22
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"ill" <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ckm843$29hr$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > All those other roads in the "metro" PA/NJ area feed into either I-95 or > I-76 and all major traffic problems are out in the suburbs where they > chose to follow the highway/sprawl model of development. Of course, those suburbs did not incur a 30 percent evacuation in population. It was more like a 60 percent increase. And look the 60 miles of the CSMA to the east. Aside from some arcane point about "feeding" and changing the distinction from freeways to Interstates, you will find 295, 55, 195, Del 13, 495, even the new US 1 and a host of such smaller thoroughfares throughout the 14-county region.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33
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"Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message news:843342-5dg.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > > And the overall efficiency is substantially worse than a conventional > internal combustion engined hybrid. Significant amounts of fuel have to be > consumed to generate the hydrogen. You assume we will always make hydrogen from fossil fuel which is unlikely. There are multiple ways being developed to get hydrogen, including direct production from solar energy breaking water down into hydrogen and oxygen with no intermediate electricity production. > Fuel which could be used more directly and more efficiently. The only > reason hydrogen fuel cells cars are feasible is that the electrical drive > is so efficient. If they take that out they are completely missing the > point. Well the experts writing in a feature summary article in Science a few weeks ago disagree with you. > And anyway, at 420 Wh/kg new generation lithium ion batteries have a > higher energy density than compressed hydrogen so I'm not convinced that > fuel cells will take off. Unless you can charge them in a few minutes and don't have to charge them again for at least 150 or more miles, then it is not a solution. In Popular Science, I think this month, the have long article on batteries and their future. They are unaware of what you are talking about and don't see much future for battery advances. They do talk about the possibility of a zinc (and air?) battery which is old but a company has figured out how to make it safe and practical. It doubles the power density that can be stored by other batteries. No indication it would make electric cars practical.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:56
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:56
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Andrew Szafran wrote: > In misc.transport.rail.americas Mr. Precision <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote: > >>Solectria Sunrise: 373 miles per charge, from Boston to NYC in 1997 >>using NiMH batteries. Batteries are twice as good now. > > > That was a very light, flimsy car, purpose-built for efficiency, and with > no cargo or passenger capacity to speak of. When you're thinking of using Certainly very light, carbon fibre construction but it passed the requisite crash testing. http://www.acterra.org/ev/archive/Sunrise_crash.html http://www.solectria.com/news/jun1600.html 4 seats and a boot(trunk). So it couldn't be called flimsy, has a 4 person capacity and a trunk to hold bags/shopping/whatever. It was a pre production prototype and Solectria would love to hear from someone with the cash to seriously put it into production. > electric cars for longer trips, in addition to range per charge, charging > *time* must be taken into account. It wouldn't do to drive 250 miles only > to have to spend 8 hours recharging the thing. 8 hours? For a trickle charge. An 80% charge in 45mins, time for lunch and a coffee. On top of this, the average distance people in the US travel is only 29 miles per day and you could plug it in at home. http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_household_travel_survey/quick_sheets/daily_travel.html For longer distances I prefer train or plane. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Andrew Szafran
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 01:55
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 01:55
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In misc.transport.rail.americas Mr. Precision <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote: > Certainly very light, carbon fibre construction but it passed the > requisite crash testing. > http://www.acterra.org/ev/archive/Sunrise_crash.html > http://www.solectria.com/news/jun1600.html > 4 seats and a boot(trunk). My mistake. I was thinking that it was an experimental solar car of some type, but it actually is a small 4-passenger car. Nice. -Andrew
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:03
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:03
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Jack May wrote: > "Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message > news:843342-5dg.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > > >>And the overall efficiency is substantially worse than a conventional >>internal combustion engined hybrid. Significant amounts of fuel have to be >>consumed to generate the hydrogen. > > > You assume we will always make hydrogen from fossil fuel which is unlikely. You either burn fuel to create electricity to create hydrogen or you strip the hydrogen from hydrocarbons. > There are multiple ways being developed to get hydrogen, including direct > production from solar energy breaking water down into hydrogen and oxygen > with no intermediate electricity production. You still have to put the same energy in to split the bonds. Unless they can do it at near 100% efficiency, generating electricity from the solar energy might be more useful. >>Fuel which could be used more directly and more efficiently. The only >>reason hydrogen fuel cells cars are feasible is that the electrical drive >>is so efficient. If they take that out they are completely missing the >>point. > > > Well the experts writing in a feature summary article in Science a few weeks > ago disagree with you. The best efficiency an internal combustion engine made out of conventional materials is around 30%, maybe 35%. In reality that is dropped to around 10%-15% by the gearbox, transmission, traffic etc. With a hydrogen ICE you have to produce the stuff in the first place which makes it even less efficient. We would be better off running Diesel hybrid ICEs than hydrogen hybrid ICEs. If we're going to move to a hydrogen economy, high efficiency fuel cells are *the* key technology and they aren't ready yet. Until then batteries are the way to go. >>And anyway, at 420 Wh/kg new generation lithium ion batteries have a >>higher energy density than compressed hydrogen so I'm not convinced that >>fuel cells will take off. > > > Unless you can charge them in a few minutes and don't have to charge them > again for at least 150 or more miles, then it is not a solution. In Popular 80% charge in 45 mins if fast charging. Simply upgrading from NiMH to current generation Li-Ions from someone like Thunder Sky would approximately double the range of the Sunrise to around 700 miles per charge. With next generation Li-S that could be around 1200 miles per charge. > Science, I think this month, the have long article on batteries and their > future. They are unaware of what you are talking about and don't see much > future for battery advances. Maybe they're not looking very hard. The technologies these companies are developing producing batteries with an energy density twice that of the current Li-Ion or Li-poly. You'll see it first in mobile phones, and laptops. http://www.sionpower.com/ http://www.polyplus.com/ -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:21
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:21
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Andrew Szafran wrote: > My mistake. I was thinking that it was an experimental solar car of some > type, but it actually is a small 4-passenger car. Nice. http://brucedp97.150m.com/evs14/evs142h.jpg AC Propulsion have an electric sportscar, now with conventional Li-Ions which will do 300 miles per charge, and 0-60 in 3.6 seconds: http://www.acpropulsion.com/Tzero_Rabbit_Lake.gif http://www.acpropulsion.com/LiIon_tzero_release.pdf -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: brasil97
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:44
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:44
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In article <o3Abd.241252$MQ5.32976@attbi_s52>, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote: > For example there were some pre ignition and other problems that needed to > be solved. A turbo charger is required to solve the pre-ignition problem. > There were some other problems in the article in "Science" magazine. This was a 1970's instruction manual published by the Department of Energy that was supposed to promote energy independence by giving any mechanically inclined citizen the ability to convert their automobile to burn hydrogen. I don't remember what the vehicle was they used in the sample conversion, but there didn't seem to be too much in the way of problems. However, as I said, the 1970s vehicles were a lot different than what is running around on our roads now. There is a lot more fuel injection, etc. Pre-ignition was probably not a problem due to the lower temperature design of the engines of that era, but that is just a guess. It is, however, an interesting book for those seriously interested in persuing hydrogen powered automobiles right now in their own back yard. -- -Glennl e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after brasil.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Adrian Hudson
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:09
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:09
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ill <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ckgvnv$fjqi$1@netnews.upenn.edu>... > Andrew Szafran wrote: > > > I don't actually think transit will every really catch on in Southern > California or any "recently" (post 50's) developed area. > > They were built around the car. Guess until those low cost Hydrogen Fuel > Cells hit the market it's gonna be a lot more of those pollution > enhanced sunsets.... Really! Ever heard of the Pacific Electric. A.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: ill
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:10
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:10
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Sancho Panza wrote: > "ill" <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:ckm843$29hr$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > >>All those other roads in the "metro" PA/NJ area feed into either I-95 or >>I-76 and all major traffic problems are out in the suburbs where they >>chose to follow the highway/sprawl model of development. > > > Of course, those suburbs did not incur a 30 percent evacuation in > population. It was more like a 60 percent increase. And look the 60 miles of > the CSMA to the east. Aside from some arcane point about "feeding" and > changing the distinction from freeways to Interstates, you will find 295, > 55, 195, Del 13, 495, even the new US 1 and a host of such smaller > thoroughfares throughout the 14-county region. > > > > Transit service within Philadelphia has been reduced by much more than 30 percent so the "evacuation" model is a little off but valid. And the roads that you are mentioning are all in new growth areas. NJ 55 has become a traffic issue because of the large amount of people who want to work in Center City Philly but want to live in South Jersey . So you have all of theses new developments that *must* use a car to get to NJ 42 and over the Walt Whitman Bridge. No Transit = Traffic All of those areas (the other highways you are talking about) lack any form of rail transit...(295,55,195...) and continue on the point of "planned on the car model" not in using pre-existing transit as areas for growth. If you were to look at a road map of Philly, you can see that most of the northern & "main line" (Jenkintown/Ardmore...) suburbs lack a direct highway route into Philly and generally get by because most of the residents use Septa's Regional Rail as a means for daily commute. If all of those people chose to drive....the four lanes of I-76 would not be able to handle it (not that it does a great job now)
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: david parsons
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:22
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:22
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In article <el7342-1bh.ln1@yelm.homenetwork>,
Mr. Precision <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote:
>Jack May wrote:
>
>> BTW, the prototype cars are getting about a 150 mile range with compressed
>> hydrogen and 300 miles with liquid hydrogen. Range is a major reason to get
>> high efficiency
>
>Solectria Sunrise: 373 miles per charge, from Boston to NYC in 1997
>using NiMH batteries. Batteries are twice as good now.
Recharge time is the problem with batteries. A regular sedan won't
get that sort of range and you'd have to take the car offline for
several hours to refill the batteries. For a pure commute car[1],
it's not a problem -- you plug it into a powerpoint at home and leave
it overnight -- but if you ever wanted to drive your car farther you'd
either need a generator sled or a second car[2].
The energy density with hydrogen isn't any better than batteries, but
you can refill the car faster than you can with electricity (provided
you can find a station that sells hydrogen.)
Of course it's all a moot point; the hydrogen car is just another
pretty mirage meant to push off the hard decisions onto someone else[3].
[1: a pure commute car driven by a sane person. There are people who
live in Los Angeles and drive to San Francisco every day for work,
but they don't live in quite the same reality as the everyday
commuter.]
[2: At which point you'll be eaten alive by car insurance costs.]
[3: Which turns out to be Toyota and Honda, who are doing a land-office
business with their gasoline-electric cars.]
____
david parsons \bi/ 50 miles a gallon! Hahahaha! 50 miles a gallon!
\/
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:18
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:18
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David Nebenzahl wrote: >> You either burn fuel to create electricity to create hydrogen or you >> strip the hydrogen from hydrocarbons. > > > Oh, really? So you're saying it's impossible to, say, generate the > electricity using solar energy (photovoltaic or thermal), wind energy, > tidal or geothermal energy? I guess those sources are all just figments > of someone's imagination. No, but renewable is only a small percentage of electricity generation for the near future, 7%. Go look it up independantly if you don't believe me. You then have to use that energy which is 93% from fossil or nuclear power plants to split water into hydrogen at a particular efficiency, which by the way reduces the faster you try to generate, you then have to compress that hydrogen or even liquify it to get a decent energy density which again happens at a particular efficiency, then you have to transport it across the country using a hydrogen distribution network which doesn't yet exist to hydrogen stations for people to fill up. It's an inefficient use of the energy you are generating at the power stations be it renewable or fossil, there are more useful ways to use it. Then, instead of putting the hydrogen into a fuel cell which might in the future get a 40% or 50% conversion efficiency into kinetic energy you put it into an internal combustion engine and get a 10% - 15% overall conversion efficiency (around 25% for hybrids). It simply makes no sense to manufacture hydrogen for an internal combustion engine when you can put Diesel into it directly. It doesn't really even make sense to use the electricity to make hydrogen when you can put it directly into a battery instead. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Bill Bolton
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:31
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:31
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brasil97@despammed.com (brasil97@despammed.com) wrote: > But the fact is the knowledge on how to do this is not recent by any > little piece of the imagination. ROFL. Have you actually tried to perform that piece of "how to do it"? If so, you would be well aware of just how utterly impactical it turned out to be. Bill Bill Bolton Sydney, Australia
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:33
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:33
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"david parsons" <orc@pell.portland.or.us> wrote in message news:ckp4gj$4ia@pell.portland.or.us... > In article <el7342-1bh.ln1@yelm.homenetwork>, > Recharge time is the problem with batteries. A regular sedan won't > get that sort of range and you'd have to take the car offline for > several hours to refill the batteries. For a pure commute car[1], > it's not a problem -- you plug it into a powerpoint at home and leave > it overnight -- but if you ever wanted to drive your car farther you'd > either need a generator sled or a second car[2]. Apparently electric is a problem even with commutes. I have seen claims that the real world range of the production electric vehicles was 40 miles, not the 120 miles under best condition. > > The energy density with hydrogen isn't any better than batteries, but > you can refill the car faster than you can with electricity (provided > you can find a station that sells hydrogen.) Yes, it is TBD for the real world range for a practical, affordable hydrogen vehicle. Looks like we may find out in a few years though. The chicken and egg problem with filling stations may be jump started in California according to Arnold, but that is also TBD > > > Of course it's all a moot point; the hydrogen car is just another > pretty mirage meant to push off the hard decisions onto someone else[3]. The hydrogen car is look fairly near term according to the Science magazine article which is far from being a puff piece magazine.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:56
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:56
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"Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message news:m8r342-7f2.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > > You either burn fuel to create electricity to create hydrogen or you strip > the hydrogen from hydrocarbons. May be mainly true now, but highly unlikely to be true in the future. > >> There are multiple ways being developed to get hydrogen, including direct >> production from solar energy breaking water down into hydrogen and oxygen >> with no intermediate electricity production. > > You still have to put the same energy in to split the bonds. Unless they > can do it at near 100% efficiency, generating electricity from the solar > energy might be more useful. Looks like we will be able to do it with a photosynthesis related process where the molecules convert water to hydrogen and oxygen directly like plants directly convert CO2 to carbon and oxygen which they have been doing for a couple of billion years. That is one potentially low cost approach that may or may not work, but many approaches are being developed > If we're going to move to a hydrogen economy, high efficiency fuel cells > are *the* key technology and they aren't ready yet. Until then batteries > are the way to go. Batteries are not good enough to solve the problems and there is not a lot of hope for them getting a lot better in the future if you project past progress as was done in the Popular Science feature article. Hydrogen ICE is almost on the market now with almost the same efficiency as fuel cells. Affordable fuel cells are no where near being available in a reasonable time. > 80% charge in 45 mins if fast charging. Simply upgrading from NiMH to > current generation Li-Ions from someone like Thunder Sky would > approximately double the range of the Sunrise to around 700 miles per > charge. With next generation Li-S that could be around 1200 miles per > charge. I doubt consumer will agree. Your range estimates appear to be way beyond what is considered to be practical especially for an affordable price and in cold winters in most of the county. How much would the batteries cost for the ranges you give. Is it tens of millions, million, hundreds of thousands, or what? > >> Science, I think this month, the have long article on batteries and their >> future. They are unaware of what you are talking about and don't see >> much future for battery advances. > > Maybe they're not looking very hard. The technologies these companies are > developing producing batteries with an energy density twice that of the > current Li-Ion or Li-poly. You'll see it first in mobile phones, and > laptops. > > http://www.sionpower.com/ > http://www.polyplus.com/ If they bring their technology to market, the main question is will the be cheap enough for electric cars, work in sub zero temperatures, and have the discharge characteristics required for electric motor. It looks like hydrogen ICE is going to be available many years before the start up company batteries in the URLs are available.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:14
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:14
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Jack May wrote: > "Andrew Szafran" <gro.ratsenol.fds@ukozosob.BACKWARDS.invalid> wrote in > message news:cknam4$970$1@chessie.cirr.com... > >>My mistake. I was thinking that it was an experimental solar car of some >>type, but it actually is a small 4-passenger car. Nice. > > > Its a an experimental electric car that is no where near production. The > figures for most electric cars are usually no where near reality. There > are claims the range of the production electric cars are typically around 40 > miles instead of the claimed 120 miles. Claims? ACP and Solectria have demonstrated the ranges of their products in real traffic, on real roads. > Driving in real traffic tends to get less miles. When batteries age, the > range decreases. Production electric cars were restricted to warm parts of > the US because range drops very low in winter temperatures. Depends on the battery technology. It's certainly a problem with 300 year old lead acid battery technologies, recent battery technologies aren't as effected by temperature and you get around a hundred thousand miles out of the batteries before the aging effect becomes an issue. > All we have for the electric car referenced is a research vehicle with no > where sufficient information to see if it is ever remotely a practical car. > There is not even a picture There are lots of pictures, I even posted a link. Google will show them to you. Solectria Sunrise, also try the ACP Tzero. > That research vehicle seem to be a proof of concept where the high cost of Pre-production. > carbon fiber construction and state of the art high cost batteries, and Nowhere near state of the art, not for 5 years anyway. This was 1997 we're talking about. Since then, mobiles and laptops have driven the cost of batteries down by orders of magnitude. > other advanced technology is not a concern. Does the car have features > that consumers require like heat and air-conditioning. Unlikely. What > else is it missing. So, basically you are completely ignorant of this car in particular, of electric vehicle products generally on the market but are voicing your opinion anyway. Do yourself a favour, go look it up, and the other products Solectria and others sell. Google has plenty of information. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:15
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:15
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"Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message news:v62642-ia7.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > Nowhere near state of the art, not for 5 years anyway. This was 1997 we're > talking about. Since then, mobiles and laptops have driven the cost of > batteries down by orders of magnitude. The cost of a laptop computer rechargeable battery is not cheap as most lap top users are well aware. A 4 Ah dell battery in the URL below is $82.50 as one example. A more extensive search would probably show similar high costs which have not dropped very fast over the years. http://www.keybattery.com/product_info.php/products_id/4713/ad/froogle The whole Popular Science feature article is answering the question of why has electronics advanced so fast when batteries make such small progress. What you say is so far removed from what the data says, that your credibility is not very high. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,702771,00.html > So, basically you are completely ignorant of this car in particular, of > electric vehicle products generally on the market but are voicing your > opinion anyway. Apparently everyone is ignorant except you. I am not seeing any experts that agree with you. For example the following URL is for an organization that is avidly promoting efficient technology and they don't think electric cars are very good, but hold out some hope. They see hybrids as a much better solution. http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid447.php >Do yourself a favour, go look it up, and the other products Solectria and >others sell. Google has plenty of information. Solectria does not appear to list any electric car for sale. They show a hybrid bus and two electric vans for about $40K used, but low mileage.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: RJ
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:33
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:33
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Jack May <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote: > Apparently electric is a problem even with commutes. I have seen claims > that the real world range of the production electric vehicles was 40 miles, > not the 120 miles under best condition. Like a laptop computer and the difference between the claimed battery operation time and the actual battery operation time.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:47
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:47
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Jack May wrote: > "Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message > news:m8r342-7f2.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > > >>You either burn fuel to create electricity to create hydrogen or you strip >>the hydrogen from hydrocarbons. > > > May be mainly true now, but highly unlikely to be true in the future. It's going to be true until fossil fuels become too expensive to pump. > Looks like we will be able to do it with a photosynthesis related process > where the molecules convert water to hydrogen and oxygen directly like > plants directly convert CO2 to carbon and oxygen which they have been doing > for a couple of billion years. > > That is one potentially low cost approach that may or may not work, but many > approaches are being developed I'll believe it works when I see it. > Batteries are not good enough to solve the problems and there is not a lot > of hope for them getting a lot better in the future if you project past > progress as was done in the Popular Science feature article. From what I can tell from your description of the article, it isn't worth the paper it was printed on. Battery technologies are progressing at an astounding rate, driven largely by the mobile market. All the market evidence contradicts you and the article. > Hydrogen ICE is almost on the market now with almost the same efficiency as > fuel cells. Affordable fuel cells are no where near being available in a > reasonable time. Hydrogen ICEs certainly might be as efficient as the current research fuel cells, the production ones will be smaller, lighter and closer to their theoretical efficiencies. I agree that we're talking 10+ years but there's no future in a hydrogen ICE, it's a pointless device. Marketing maybe. > I doubt consumer will agree. Your range estimates appear to be way beyond > what is considered to be practical especially for an affordable price and in > cold winters in most of the county. How much would the batteries cost for > the ranges you give. Is it tens of millions, million, hundreds of > thousands, or what? Practical range needs to be 350-400 miles, that's what petrol cars are generally capable of. It's unlikely BEVs will be designed with ranges of 1200 miles. The cost? Several thousand dollars, less than ten thousand. Link to an amateur ICE -> BEV conversion using previously mentioned Thunder Sky Li-Ions. http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm >>http://www.sionpower.com/ >>http://www.polyplus.com/ > > > If they bring their technology to market, the main question is will the be > cheap enough for electric cars, work in sub zero temperatures, and have the > discharge characteristics required for electric motor. They work way down below zero C, -40C in fact. Discharge characteristics are provided by ultracapacitors though Li-S is pretty good in this regard anyway. e.g. http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JESOAN00015000000300A306000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes > It looks like hydrogen ICE is going to be available many years before the > start up company batteries in the URLs are available. PolyPlus already have a product on the market for mobile phones. SION aren't far behind. It's only going to get better and cheaper. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:07
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:07
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"RJ" <re_johnson@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1glpspr.1pplado12soyrkN%re_johnson@hotmail.com... > Jack May <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Apparently electric is a problem even with commutes. I have seen claims >> that the real world range of the production electric vehicles was 40 >> miles, >> not the 120 miles under best condition. > > Like a laptop computer and the difference between the claimed battery > operation time and the actual battery operation time. Yes there does seem to be a slight bit of exaggeration in the specs :-)
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:56
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:56
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"Philip Nasadowski" <nasadowsk@nospam.usermail.com> wrote in message news:nasadowsk-732DC1.22242715102004@news.isp.giganews.com... > FC's are pure marketing hype. And honestly, if a hydrogen ICE is > cheaper, smaller, more powerful than an FC - and currently, they pretty > much are - then that's where things will go if the mythical hydrogen > economy ever goes anywhere. Case closed. Why spend billions on some > theoretical ideal if the existing technology is almost as good and > 1/100th the cost. 0 to 60 times are also better on hydrogen ICE because fuels cells don't supply the required peak power. For most guys that means case closed again
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 03:14
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 03:14
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Jack May wrote: > "Mr. Precision" <Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com> wrote in message > news:v62642-ia7.ln1@yelm.homenetwork... > >>Nowhere near state of the art, not for 5 years anyway. This was 1997 we're >>talking about. Since then, mobiles and laptops have driven the cost of >>batteries down by orders of magnitude. > > > The cost of a laptop computer rechargeable battery is not cheap as most lap > top users are well aware. A 4 Ah dell battery in the URL below is $82.50 > as one example. A more extensive search would probably show similar high > costs which have not dropped very fast over the years. > > http://www.keybattery.com/product_info.php/products_id/4713/ad/froogle That's a deliberate tactic by laptop (and mobile phone) manufacturers, they make the interface to the battery proprietary so that you have to come back to them to purchase new ones. You pay the same, the cells inside the batteries continue to drop in price and the manufacturer makes greater profits. A 4000mAh laptop NiMH battery for $82.50, $7 for equivalent capacity from these guys: http://www.megabatteries.com/items.asp?cat_id=25 And they're still making a good profit on the batteries. (BTW, if you have a dud laptop battery, they contain normal cells and can be replaced with a soldering iron, this is true of both Li-ion and Ni-MH batteries) > The whole Popular Science feature article is answering the question of why > has electronics advanced so fast when batteries make such small progress. Small progress? Over the last couple of decades batteries have been doubling in performance every few years. Current Lion batteries are five times as powerful as a lead acid battery. Lead acid, 25 Wh/kg NiCad, 55 Wh/kg NiMH, 90 Wh/kg Li-Ion, 150Wh/kg Li-S, 350Wh/kg (PolyPlus 420Wh/kg, SION 380Wh/kg) > What you say is so far removed from what the data says, that your > credibility is not very high. > > http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,702771,00.html It is a facile article, more popular than science, their argument seems to be that because Lithium is the lightest element we're at the end of the line. They have missed the point that it's surface area which defines the capacity of a battery. http://www.knowledgepress.com/events/6301210.htm >>So, basically you are completely ignorant of this car in particular, of >>electric vehicle products generally on the market but are voicing your >>opinion anyway. > > > Apparently everyone is ignorant except you. I am not seeing any experts I just keep up to date with current advances. > that agree with you. For example the following URL is for an organization > that is avidly promoting efficient technology and they don't think electric > cars are very good, but hold out some hope. They see hybrids as a much > better solution. > > http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid447.php The Rocky Mountain Institute eh? At half a tonne, they're talking about lead/acid batteries and I agree, not particularly promising. I also agree, hybrids (and not hydrogen hybrids) are the best technology for now, but only because the only BEVs on the market are conversions from conventional vehicles and are therefore compromised by weight and aerodynamics. For the future though, totally different thing. >>Do yourself a favour, go look it up, and the other products Solectria and >>others sell. Google has plenty of information. > > > Solectria does not appear to list any electric car for sale. They show a > hybrid bus and two electric vans for about $40K used, but low mileage. Solectria Force was another electric car with a range of 250 miles. A conversion from a conventional vehicle. They've sold the rights to concentrate on the drivetrain. http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/rav4_ev_click_click.html Both NiMH powered, like any battery vehicle, can be upgrade to newer technologies improving performance. http://www.electrovaya.com/ http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/ http://www.acpropulsion.com/ It's interesting to note that Ovonic, the developers of the battery for the Sunrise and the Force, as well as the GM EV1 have been purchased by Texaco. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Sancho Panza
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:29
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:29
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"ill" <illadel@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ckp09k$3cfr$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > Transit service within Philadelphia has been reduced by much more than > 30 percent so the "evacuation" model is a little off but valid. It didn't include the dispersion of businesses. > And the roads that you are mentioning are all in new growth areas. NJ 55 > has become a traffic issue because of the large amount of people who > want to work in Center City Philly but want to live in South Jersey . So > you have all of theses new developments that *must* use a car to get to > NJ 42 and over the Walt Whitman Bridge. No Transit = Traffic Doesn't the Lindenwold Hi-Speed serve much of that market? > If all of those people chose to drive....the four lanes of I-76 would not be able to handle it (not that it does a great job now) The City of Philadelphia continues to constitute less than one-third of the CMSA in population and far less than that in area. That is why it was a distortion to say that a metropolitan region of 5.5 million had two freeways.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:24
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:24
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Philip Nasadowski wrote: >>I agree that we're talking 10+ years but >>there's no future in a hydrogen ICE, it's a pointless device. > > > I'd say the same thing of fuel cells, actually. There's no point to Except that they have more potential, unless you start making use of more exotic materials like ceramics within the ICE which would allow much higher temperatures, increasing efficiencies, but then the same technologies could have been applied to fossil fueled engines already and we haven't seen them in general use. > FC's are pure marketing hype. And honestly, if a hydrogen ICE is > cheaper, smaller, more powerful than an FC - and currently, they pretty I agree with most of what you're saying, in particular I'm also highly sceptical about the hydrogen economy but if we're going that way (and we seem to be) a hydrogen ICE is pointless, a small efficient and low cost fuel cell is a requirement. Internal Combustion Engines don't (can't) provide the efficiency gains required to make a hydrogen economy less polluting than an oil based economy. I'm of the opinion that in the short term we'd be better off switching to Diesel ICE/hybrids and start manufacturing bioDiesel, at least until the next generation of battery technologies have reasonable cycle life and cost. > much are - then that's where things will go if the mythical hydrogen > economy ever goes anywhere. Case closed. Why spend billions on some > theoretical ideal if the existing technology is almost as good and > 1/100th the cost. Because existing fossil fueled internal combustion engines are as efficient as a hydrogen internal combustion engine. More efficient since you don't have to manufacture the hydrogen. -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Mr. Precision
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:27
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:27
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Jack May wrote: > 0 to 60 times are also better on hydrogen ICE because fuels cells don't > supply the required peak power. For most guys that means case closed again You put a bank of supercapacitors in front of the electrical source. http://www.europhysicsnews.com/full/23/article2/article2.html -- UCE probe. Don't send mail to Amaps.news@archeus.plus.com there's nobody home. The address captures spammer addresses and /dev/nulls all their mail. Regards, Colin.Smith at archeus.plus.com
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: brasil97
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:01
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:01
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In article <j1g0n0l3fihfross625dvej01nb4l69nrp@4ax.com>, billbolton@*remove*computer.org wrote: > brasil97@despammed.com (brasil97@despammed.com) wrote: > > > But the fact is the knowledge on how to do this is not recent by any > > little piece of the imagination. > > ROFL. > > Have you actually tried to perform that piece of "how to do it"? If > so, you would be well aware of just how utterly impactical it turned > out to be. Of course it was impractical, and there haven't been any real changes since that time that make it any more practical. All of the problems that made it impractical then, as far as I know, are still there today. Therefore, to claim that somehow we are going to have hydrogen powered cars in 5 years time seems quite silly. The knowledge in how to convert a normal auto engine to hydrogen power has been there since the 1970s. If it was practical it would have started to happen then, when gasoline prices were (adjusted for inflation) about 3 times what they are now. -- -Glennl e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after brasil.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:39
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:39
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<brasil97@despammed.com> wrote in message news:brasil97-1810041901590001@69-30-8-241.pxd.easystreet.com... > The knowledge in how to convert a normal auto engine to hydrogen power has > been there since the 1970s. If it was practical it would have started to > happen then, when gasoline prices were (adjusted for inflation) about 3 > times what they are now. No one would go through a long term transition to hydrogen for the short term price blip in the 70s
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:55
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:55
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"Salim al-Hukmatyr" <jesus@mytrashmail.com> wrote in message news:5cab30cc.0411102016.11e653ae@posting.google.com... > Railroads are very expensive. They canno be justified by a balance sheet. The problem in the Bay Area is that no one seems to have any real justification for the railroads we have built or upgraded.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: George Conklin
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:55
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:55
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"Salim al-Hukmatyr" <jesus@mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
news:5cab30cc.0411102015.591fe0f1@posting.google.com...
> It is profoundly sad that people can be so lonely that they turn to
> their fellow passengers for companionship. They need to build
> healthier and more vital lives at home and with their neighbors.
There is no evidence that people really do build friendships packed into
buses and trains.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Bart Z. Lederman
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:53
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:53
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In article <5cab30cc.0411102015.591fe0f1@posting.google.com>, jesus@mytrashmail.com (Salim al-Hukmatyr) writes: > >It is profoundly sad that people can be so lonely that they turn to >their fellow passengers for companionship. They need to build >healthier and more vital lives at home and with their neighbors. > In many cases, their fellow passengers ARE their neighbors. -- B. Z. Lederman Personal Opinions Only Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing list of any kind. Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have a legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Baxter
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:00
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:00
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The "Rail Transit In America: Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits" study says otherwise. ----------------------- The study concludes that rail transit service costs are repaid several times over by reduced congestion, road and parking facility costs, reduced traffic accident costs, and consumer cost savings. "Rail Transit In America" is available at http://www.vtpi.org/railben.pdf The executive summary is available at http://www.vtpi.org/railbensum.pdf -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Salim al-Hukmatyr" <jesus@mytrashmail.com> wrote in message news:5cab30cc.0411102016.11e653ae@posting.google.com... > Railroads are very expensive. They canno be justified by a balance sheet.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Baxter
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:01
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:01
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Read the "Rail Transit In America: Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits" study. "Rail Transit In America" is available at http://www.vtpi.org/railben.pdf The executive summary is available at http://www.vtpi.org/railbensum.pdf -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote in message news:a1Ekd.27956$5K2.198@attbi_s03... > > "Salim al-Hukmatyr" <jesus@mytrashmail.com> wrote in message > news:5cab30cc.0411102016.11e653ae@posting.google.com... > > Railroads are very expensive. They canno be justified by a balance sheet. > > The problem in the Bay Area is that no one seems to have any real > justification for the railroads we have built or upgraded. > >
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: James Robinson
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:41
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:41
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George Conklin wrote: > > There is no evidence that people really do build friendships > packed into buses and trains. Sure there is. There are two television programs that investigate the socio-economic condition of people riding commuter trains, including the development of friendships: Going Home played in Australia: http://www.australiantelevision.net/goinghome.html Train 48 now plays in Canada: http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-19617/ http://www.canada.com/entertainment/features/train48/index.html
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:49
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:49
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"James Robinson" <wascana@212.com> wrote in message news:41961D2D.2C4B61ED@212.com... > Sure there is. There are two television programs that investigate the > socio-economic condition of people riding commuter trains, including the > development of friendships: > > Going Home played in Australia: > > http://www.australiantelevision.net/goinghome.html > > Train 48 now plays in Canada: > > http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-19617/ > http://www.canada.com/entertainment/features/train48/index.html Television programs are not real life. Television must be a lot more exciting than real life to stay on the air. I rode the San Diego light rail once since it is considered the most successful such system in the US. The image that sticks in my mind most is the full train with people going to work with no happiness in their face, no "light" in their eyes, and no interactions with anyone else on the train. They were just blankly staring ahead. All the life seemed to have been drained out of them. The train was coming from the Mexican border going to downtown through what I think is a poor part of the city. Poverty may explain part of the highly depressing mood on the train.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Eric Gisin
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:49
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:49
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What the hell does reality TV have to do with reality? "James Robinson" <wascana@212.com> wrote in message news:41961D2D.2C4B61ED@212.com... > > > > There is no evidence that people really do build friendships > > packed into buses and trains. > > Sure there is. There are two television programs that investigate the > socio-economic condition of people riding commuter trains, including the > development of friendships: > > Going Home played in Australia: > > http://www.australiantelevision.net/goinghome.html > > Train 48 now plays in Canada: > > http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-19617/ > http://www.canada.com/entertainment/features/train48/index.html
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: John David Galt
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:28
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:28
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Baxter wrote: > The "Rail Transit In America: Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits" study > says otherwise. Does it cover the foregone benefits of building highways instead?
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Nicholas Byram
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:44
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:44
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"John David Galt" <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote in message news:cn5qvj$m0m$1@blue.rahul.net... > Baxter wrote: >> The "Rail Transit In America: Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits" study >> says otherwise. > > Does it cover the foregone benefits of building highways instead? No, it sure doesn't. Nor does it cover the foregone time lost spent commuting longer and longer, and the foregone economic stimulus that roads give to commerce and industry that mass transit simply does not. Not many goods and services move by commuter train. Nick Byram (Bay Area Exile) Antelope, CA "Cars and guns are both instruments and symbols of personal independence - and both are targets of hostility and even hatred by those who are convinced that they can run other people's lives better than those people can run their own lives. All sorts of claims are made against cars and guns, without the slightest interest in checking those claims against readily available facts." -- Thomas Sowell
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Baxter
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:03
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:03
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-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "John David Galt" <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote in message news:cn5qvj$m0m$1@blue.rahul.net... > Baxter wrote: > > The "Rail Transit In America: Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits" study > > says otherwise. > > Does it cover the foregone benefits of building highways instead? By "forgone" you mean "imaginary"? Or that you just don't want to be bothered with actual facts?
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: James Robinson
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:28
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:28
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Jack May wrote: > > James Robinson wrote: > > > > Sure there is. There are two television programs that investigate the > > socio-economic condition of people riding commuter trains, including the > > development of friendships: > Television programs are not real life. Television must be a lot more > exciting than real life to stay on the air. I can see you have no sense of humor, which was the intent of my posting. > I rode the San Diego light rail once since it is considered the most > successful such system in the US. The image that sticks in my mind most is > the full train with people going to work with no happiness in their face, no > "light" in their eyes, and no interactions with anyone else on the train. > They were just blankly staring ahead. All the life seemed to have been > drained out of them. And the difference between that and people commuting in their cars like automatons is...??? Whenever I see someone smiling while driving, I suspect they are mentally deranged. Often drivers are intent on making sure nobody gets in front of them, but cutting into lines themselves at merges and offramps, tailgating, and occasionally giving people the finger for emphasis. I guess they consider the challenge to be the fun part of the activity. > The train was coming from the Mexican border going to downtown through what > I think is a poor part of the city. Poverty may explain part of the highly > depressing mood on the train. So you base your opinion about all train travel by that one single experience? I have commuted by train in four different cities in North America, plus short periods while on assignment in other countries, and my experiences are totally different from yours. There are often groups of commuters who get together to play cards, discuss politics, or plain socialize. That is the reality, not your somber view of the world.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Stephen Sprunk
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:24
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:24
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"James Robinson" <wascana@212.com> wrote in message news:4196C2C8.9F603DB5@212.com... > Jack May wrote: >> The train was coming from the Mexican border going to downtown through >> what >> I think is a poor part of the city. Poverty may explain part of the >> highly >> depressing mood on the train. > > So you base your opinion about all train travel by that one single > experience? I have commuted by train in four different cities in North > America, plus short periods while on assignment in other countries, and > my experiences are totally different from yours. There are often groups > of commuters who get together to play cards, discuss politics, or plain > socialize. That is the reality, not your somber view of the world. Ditto; I've ridden various rail systems in ten different cities on three continents and have seen roughly the same behavior on all of them: people travelling alone usually either read, listen to radios/CDs, or zone out entirely, and people travelling in groups socialize just like they would in a car. Singles who are more extroverted may join into nearby groups' discussions, but by and large people exhibit the same behavior as if they were travelling in POVs. My personal experience is that the assertion in the subject line is false, but I'm not exactly an extroverted person so I figure it's an issue of sample size (i.e. one). I usually read on the train to/from work and just zone out other times, though if needed I do help others figure out how to get where they're going or where to get off. I occasionally find someone interesting to talk to on the train, but never anyone with enough in common to bother exchanging contact info. As Tyler Durden says in _Fight Club_, they're "single-serving friends". S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Jack May
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:51
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:51
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>> James Robinson wrote: > And the difference between that and people commuting in their cars like > automatons is...??? Whenever I see someone smiling while driving, I > suspect they are mentally deranged. What I am concerned most about is how we torture poor people by essentially forcing them on to transit instead of allowing them to live a better quality of life more like the middle class. The cheaper and more humane approach would tend to be transportation vouchers for the poor so they could afford to drive like the middle class The poor often work two (sometimes more) jobs while having to suffer the much longer commute times and rigid schedules of transit. That drains a person. A voucher could add flexibility and time to a poor person's life. > > So you base your opinion about all train travel by that one single > experience? I was relating my experience which one other person says he also sees. None of it statistically significant and neither is your experience. I have ridden other rail systems, but the passengers were in much more pleasant situations like being on a vacation or University Students heading to Bourbon St. in New Orleans. It is obvious that the experience on commuter rail is not very good since, the vast majority of people avoid using rail transit.
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: Bob Scheurle
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:37
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:37
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:51:55 GMT, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote: >What I am concerned most about is how we torture poor people by essentially >forcing them on to transit instead of allowing them to live a better quality >of life more like the middle class. Where I live, the train commuters make $150,000 per year and have a Christmas party on the train every year, where they decorate the train, have some food & drinks, and give presents to each other (including the conductor).
Re: Commuting by train builds new friends and social contacts
Author: DaveW
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:24
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:24
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Bob Scheurle wrote: > On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:51:55 GMT, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> > wrote: > >>What I am concerned most about is how we torture poor people by essentially >>forcing them on to transit instead of allowing them to live a better quality >>of life more like the middle class. > > > Where I live, the train commuters make $150,000 per year and have a > Christmas party on the train every year, where they decorate the train, > have some food & drinks, and give presents to each other (including the > conductor). > Note that there tends to be a big difference between the passengers on "commuter rail" (locomotive hauled trains making stops several miles apart, stops at offstreet stations, Los Angeles Metrolink, Caltrain) verses "light rail" (what used to be called interurbans..stops about every 2 miles, runs down the middle of the street in some areas: San Diego Trolley, Los Angeles Blue Line). The former come in from relatively far off suburbs, the latter are mostly within the more urban landscape. Commuter rail trains often operate without standees and over longer distances, and the passengers tend to be more affuluent. BART is a mix of both worlds. Regards, DAve
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